America - Richest nation in the world, yet 1/6th people w/o Healthcare and living on the poverty line?

Question

sorry...I'm Canadian....and the rest of us industrialized/developed countries don't get why universal healthcare is such a big issue.
If you're so patriotic, why would you let another citizen die because he can't afford to go to the hospital?

still trying to be nice, but why are you all talk, and all show...but the only action is when you exert your 600 billion$ military overseas?

unless anyone here has had a medical procedure/gone to the doctor in Canada or England (which I have since I was a boy), you really shouldn't be answering this question. Otherwise, you're really talking out of your ***...you patriotic partisans...
hyperbole all you want.
We have free healthcare and you don't.
Which citizens care more about their fellow man and their country?
Liberty does not equal selfishness and inequality and division among classes and races.
At least we have it when we need it.

having spent alot of time in the us (been to 18 states), but still looking in from the outside...and having lived in can, us, eng, china...
isn't this just an insane debate?

#1: Let's get this straight right away.
The USA is 1 trillion in debt with China, but has an annual investment from Saudi Arabia of roughly the same amount every year.
Most economists predict that China will completely overtake the US economy by 2030. Then, America will have its army and entertainment, and nothing more.
Even England had to pull out of India, HK, SNG....every empire crumbles...and there is NO WAY that America can keep on spending 600 billion+ a year on its military...the total accumulative of the next 50 COUNTRIES COMBINED....
smarten up America...even I had a 'we're with you' American & Canadian flag together on my car after 9/11...but you have embarrassed yourself almost beyond the point of no return with the Bush racket since the invasion of Iraq.
P.S. Canada still has soldiers in Afghanastan.

Answer 1

There are several cultural strains that make up the American character (and new ones are being added all the time - stay tuned.) One of these strains is Puritanism. You know our modern puritans - they are personified by Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swaggart and they were immortalized in literature as the hypocrites they are in Elmer Gantry and The Scarlet Letter.

Puritans were kicked out of England, and didn't like it in the Netherlands because their children were becoming too "Dutch." So, off they moved to America so that they could practice their religion as they chose.

All strains of American culture have story lines that motivate or brainwash the culture as a whole. The Puritans tell you you must pull yourself up by your bootstraps, that pleasure is suspect, and pain in surely good. Illness is viewed as a judgment by God, and prayer really ought to heal you. Not to say that our modern day Puritans with insurance wouldn't go to the doctor, but you without insurance are really living out God's judgment here and now and they don't feel any guilt about your suffering. You deserve it.

Another strain in our culture is that of the Rugged Individualist. Like a good democrat, this person is suspicious of government and knows that many good things besides genocide of the native peoples and enslavement of the imported Africans come of unfettered exercise of the will. Apart from the unwillingness to examine the lessons of Europe about The Will and its capacities and righteousness, the modern day Rugged Individualist is heavily influenced by libertarianism and the horrific Russian import 'objectivism.' Libertarians aren't hostile about it, but they've got theirs, you go get yours. They're even sure someone might be moved to be charitable to you, but feel government mandated charity is a corruption, and an abomination. They argue that society is distorted when social Darwinism isn't the guiding principle. They believe a glorious day will arise when free enterprise is unfettered and you have to buy a subscription to the fire department. What this idealistic strain of American culture has to ignore is that humanity has already tried unregulated capitalism (see feudalism, see guilded age, see great depression, see your neighbor's deck falling off during a graduation party and several of their friends and family dying and sustaining severe injuries.)

There's another thing about American culture, the myth that anyone can be rich. So many Americans want to be rich that they are willing to allow the rich to be unaccountable, in hopes that they too will be rich one day, and unaccountable. People verbalize this here. They don't hate the rich, as they claim leftists do, they want to be the rich and drive right over you in their Hummers. And so they are very eager spreaders of the propaganda of the ruling elite. It's a horror to behold.

Because the strain of American culture I am awash in is the eastern European immigrant fleeing the gathering storm, my daddy sang me union songs and working songs

"You load sixteen tons and what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt.
St. Peter don't you call me
Cause I can't go.
I owe my soul to the company store."

My great-grandfather died happy that he came to America and gave his family freedom. His youngest brother died in Auschwitz almost 40 years after great-grandfather arrived, died as all Polish dissidents had to, under Hitler. The town they came from was destroyed, save the ancient Catholic cathedral which held the family's birth records.

Yes, he was grateful to be here, as we remain, but he marched for something better than 12 hour days underground, better than the company store and housing he had to use and was never out of debt to - marched and some of his co-marchers were gunned down next to him, by killers hired by the coal mine owners

(who had the right to give title of Indian land to these owners, i always wonder? how can you inherit stolen land? how can a king give away land he has never even seen?)

with the complicity of the US government and local police. But in the end, they established the radical notion that even people who don't own the means of production are valuable, are not commodities, make a huge contribution to the wealth of the owners that the owners could not get without them.

Well, this thinking is clearly red, isn't it? So, as it started to spread, started to become another of America's cultural strains, the ruling elite began a propaganda campaign that has not ceased after 8 decades. Communism, Socialism, Collectivism are evil, godless, inefficient, after you.



My own father raised me calling what we wanted 'socialized medicine.' It was his 'you're damn right' response to people who used that term as a pejorative. They only used it as a put down because they were taught to. It's insane. Most people don't think. They feel. And they feel they way they were taught to, by their Puritan parents, or Rugged Individualist parents, or their lap dogs of the ruling elite parents.

All this said, in the past two or three years, the polling on Universal Health Care has changed dramatically in the United States, numbers I didn't think I'd see in my life time. More than 3/4 of Americans now want it.

Michael Moore's Sicko got rave reviews from even Fox News. Many people are hoping or hyping that this film will provoke the revolution. Several of our Democratic presidential nominee contenders are advocating different forms of Universal Health Care.

Stay tuned. We like being the good guys, and so many people have gotten a clear picture under Bush of what giving too much latitude to the Puritans, the Libetarians, and The Rich will do to a country. If only there was a heaven, my precious precious father would finally see us get our socialized medicine.

(And don't even remind me that he would probably still be alive, as the poorest man in England lives longer than the richest man in America....)

Answer 2

First of all, I live in the United States and though I have not traveled to Canada and Europe (though I would love to), I have done a fair amount of research upon the subject. I don't neccessarily support the 'War on Terrorism' and the military funding, but I do support independent healthcare.

I understand where you are coming from, but NOBODY gets refused in hospitals, illegals, the impoverished, or anybody else, they all get treated. Also they get treated efficiently. I recently read an article about Canada's waiting lists that suggests that your statement of "At least we have it when we need it" is untrue. The wait between visiting a general practitioner and receiving treatment is ridiculous with Ontario's wait ( the shortest) 14.9 WEEKS and New Brunswick's wait (the longest ) of 31.9 WEEKS. I found this information on :
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=753

Another reason why I dislike the socialized healthcare (especially how the Canadians go about it) is that it takes an individual's rights away. Only in Cuba, North Korea and Canada is it illegal to purchase private health insurance and for a doctor to have private medical practice.

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/6/825?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=illegality+of+private+health+care&searchid=1141074978157_4633&FIRSTINDEX=0&volume=164&issue=6&journalcode=cmaj

Oh, and by the way, don't you still have to pay for healthcare through taxes, which is a percentage of one's capita and not an initial cost. Is that equal for everyone? One wouldn't buy automotive insurance for a percentage, only a monthly initial cost, would they?

And though the belief that not everybody is equal in this country may possibly be true, we have equal opportunities. Anyone can get an education and make at least a decent living.

Answer 3

I don't even like seeing a (possibly) illegal immigrant dying in the E.R. waiting room in L.A.. I doubt she had insurance, Ms. Rodriguez, who died without care, is the ugly face of the politics surrounding medicine in the USA today.
I'm sure if she had had money, she'd have been admitted already by the physician she couldn't afford to see. Many people without insurance in the USA go to the emergency room before seeing a doctor. They wait until it's really urgent. I know because when I was relatively poor, I had a broken tooth and couldn't afford the dentist, so I just lived with until it got infected, and I went to NYU dental school, and they took care of it cheaply.

Another issue is that hospitals are required to provide emergency care even if the person doesn't have insurance; but a big city hospital in the USA that handles lots of charity cases and never gets paid for them can be bombarded every day by people screaming that they're dying and they find out it's not urgent. Other industrialized nations are not dealing with the large numbers of illegal immigrants and down-and-out Americans and their children that cost money to treat; hospitals face budget cuts from state and federal aid reductions, then there are the lawsuits to deal with that are ultimately settled with taxpayer money as hospitals could go bankrupt. I don't pity the poor hospitals, no, but like everything the money has to come from somewhere to keep anything open.
Americans want to keep our taxes low, but we still want the services like fire, police, public schools, emergency medical facilities. So many Americans vote against their own interests for some obscure and unscientific reasons.
What I'm saying is that those who vote (R) basically wouldn't want their taxes going to support all the little "urchins" looking for a handout, but they never complain about the bigwheels or the fatcats. Now watch them act appalled that they let that lady die in the ER waiting room and 911 wouldn't help her.
This's what you voted for if you vote (R) (with few exceptions)

I'd like to see affordable medical care for everyone. It's the middle class that's suffering the most here now, since those that are really poor can get Medicaid more easily. but so many middle class "wanna be" with the rich guys, so they go along with whatever the party decides, no questions asked. They point the finger at the poor, but don't criticize the big man with the gun.

I think government could negotiate cheaper deals for medicine, but the related private industries don't want to see their profits drop.

The Dems. mention national health care in their platform. Critics say it would raise taxes, and if a Dem. President tries to push for socialized medicine, the fight will be vicious from the (R) side.
And why? Ultimately the (R)'s don't want their money going to pay for the poor, who in their opinion don't work or are lazy.
Businesses would like it, because it would save them from paying for employee health insurance. This could lure some companies to the USA for business.

From another viewpoint though, compared to other industrialized nations, which have populations that are full of educated people, and tend to be more homogeneous, the USA is like a more "open world" than Canada or Germany, with a growing 3rd world population... I can't defend the USA's current medical situation; it's unfair, inhumane, and ultimately profit is the main goal. I know there's good quality, and those who come here from Canada or elsewhere for care surely have plenty of money, the gentleman forgot to mention.
I think an important thing Americans should realize is that if our government gave us basic health insurance as a tax deduction, we could still get supplemental insurance, companies could still provide benefits if they want. SOme nuts here think the government is going to take away all your insurance and make you come to their long-line public clinics.
Even in Canada, you can pay more for quicker service, I've heard.
One last idea to run across other industrial nations' minds, though, is this: Imagine if some large hand took a very poor 3rd world country from Africa, Asia, or the Americas, and plopped it down in the middle of Canada or Germany or France. How long before your social system would feel the impact? How long would it last? Would the people readily accept all the newcomers with heartfelt sympathy? I know France, Germany, and Netherlands are feeling the burden, but somehow they're managing.
It is true that our military budget is enormous, so that's a big reason why other countries can afford better social services; they don't spend as much on military, and ironically, I wouldn't be surprised if from a "God's-eye" view, these countries that don't spend as much are just as safe if not safer than the USA today.

Answer 4

I could write a whole book about this issue, but Ill just leave this thought for now.

No matter what your viewpoint on universal health care is, doesnt it trouble you that the amount we have spent on killing Iraqis would have paid for American health care 5 times over?

Answer 5

Is there anyone on this planet besides GOP Princess who is so short-sighted to think people get treated for cancer at emergency rooms? For diabetes? Heart disease?

No. They don't. Emergency room care is only one aspect of care, and it certainly should be used to ear aches, which is what the poor have to do to get that guaranteed care for their babies or kidney stones.

But no one without insurance can get care for chronic illness. What a joke.

Has GOP Princess never seen the sorry site of coin collection jars for cancer treatment for little kids?

What heartless ignorance.

Answer 6

That's capitalism for you. It teaches that you shouldn't care about your fellow human beings. GOP princess is a perfect example of a victim of capitalism.

Yes, America is long overdue for universal health care.

Answer 7

How about the fact that we are the ONLY industrialized country that doesn't have universal health care.

The problem is that the top 10% of the wealth doesn't care to lose any of it's health, and it's not like they're just greedy they have some facts that back there thinking up. Take GM motors in Detroit, in the 50's to mid 70's it was a great job, benifits galore, pention too, not seeing the future where other car companys would come in and make cars in america too, thus GM doesn't have the money to pay it's employees now and the older retired workers who are now getting pentions.

Health care is the same way, now it sounds great, everyone works and everyone helps pay for the health care, but whatabout that guy who doesn't work, is he going to be turned away at the hospital? no, well then that's $$$ outta my pocket.

I live in Massachuesetts, we have 'Mass health' which is a state healt care system, but ask the middle class that has a family of 3, and the 2 parents are working 120 hours, to afford a morgage and then have to pay taxes to give someone else who isn't working free health care, not exactly fair is it?

Answer 8

It has to do with the neocons and conservatives being in control of the government. Once the Democrats get control of both Congress and the White House we will see progress again and we will catch up and even pass the other industrialized nations in these matters.

Answer 9

I guess that to some people it's more important to use our hard-earned tax money on new ways to kill people than it is to fund programs that would save the lives of poor people.

That being said, though, I've also heard some pretty unfavorable things about socialized medicine. For example, I've heard that patients don't choose their physicians. Not only that, but I've seen some pictures of hospital rooms in the UK, which has socialized health care. They seem to often have several beds in one room, rather than having one or two people to a room, which would give the patients extra privacy. Also, I've heard that people who need organ transplants often have to wait longer in countries with socialized medicine than those who don't. I'm not saying that the US health care system is perfect, but from what I've heard, socialized medicine isn't, either. If what I've heard is in any way incorrect, please feel free to correct me.

Answer 10

Just to help you get your facts straight, that 1/6th of the population includes everyone who went without health insurance for one day. Anyone who changed jobs is included in those statistics.

American hospitals are not allowed to refuse treatment to anyone. No one dies because they cannot afford to go to the hospital. They are treated whether they can afford it or not.

Answer 11

Why can't they afford to go to the hospital in the land of opportunity? I am all for helping people who are in need through no fault of their own but to save people who are falling victim to their own poor choices only makes the problem worse. In the US we are given the means to obtain good paying employment but many people decide they would rather party and not prepare themselves for life. Those people then count on the people like me to bail them out when they get into trouble and to tell you the truth I am tired of it. I have been to many countries (including yours) that have universal health care and all I hear is how the people are upset about how much they pay into taxes well guess why. Our government has proved through social security, education, immigration, homeland security, military, and even through getting the annual budget passed that they are not really very efficient so why would we think they could handle the task.

Another issue is that politicians world wide seam to like kickbacks and scams that make them fat and I see how easy it would be for them to misuse tax money earmarked for health care. They hijack money from all other areas of the budget so why would we think it would be different here. They would not be affected by stealing from health care because just like social security they would fall under a different set of rules.

China don't get me wrong I like your country but I don't agree with all of your policies (i don't even agree with all of ours). Look at the number of teen agers you have living on the streets there and tell me why. I think (and I could be wrong) that it is due to the fact that they are able to recieve welfare even at their young age so if mom and dad piss them off they hit the streets and count on tax payers and handouts to support them. IMO handouts only make the weak weaker because it prevents them from getting motivation.