FISCAL conservatives! I have a question for you?

Question

Does keeping illegals illegal help our economy? I think of it this way...I am pretty sure some work for me, although I have done everything i can to document the worker, proof, checked against known fraudulent IDs, etc...I am also pretty sure they operate on some appearance of legality. So, they pay their taxes, yet cannot draw on social programs, or recieve health insurance (HUGE costs) They can use the emergency room, but not that many people have a need for emergency care...not as many as pay. If we make them legal, they can now draw on social programs, etc...so doesn't it make sense to keep them here, and illegal? We get the cheap labor, collect taxes, and dont pay back out to them. And please, this is for those who are fiscally conservative, this is not a debate on the morality of law.

Brian, I very plainly explained this was not a debate on the morality of law, but rather a fiscal debate.

rhaavin...that was my point. It is NOT a good thing.

oh, and rhaavin...your name wouldn't be Adam would it? because that guy actually DOES do those things ! lol

Aslan, that logic would work if illegals were FORCED here, like the slaves. Also, we didn't DEPORT them when we freed them. Not really the same thing

also, our infrastructure would not have happened without slave labor. Our country was built on the backs of slaves...we never would have gotten to where we are without it.

Steve, the dept of labor has no statistics on the number of illegals using false ID cards...which I think is WAY more than the ones they actually know about...So it isn;t a hole in my theory, there are holes in the ability to track those who use false ID. IMO, the MAJORITY

aslan, you are wrong...endentured servitude started in the north, in new york...and it was blacks and whites both. They both got paid, both paid off their debts and then were free. That lasted for about 100 years. Then, people got greedy, blacks were tried and convicted of crimes that whites were not, and then refused to free them when their servitude was over. THAT lasted for about another 100 years, until the civil war. Infrastructure WAS built on the backs of slaves. There is a wonderful documentarty on the history of slavery in this country on PBS. It was really eye opening. I suggest you check it out, and gain the understanding of the importance of these people's hard work, and the fact that we STILL benefit from this...the fact that we became a great nation because of slave labor. THAT isn't racism, it is appreciation. And a good argument for reparations.

after the north was built, they moved further south, into the virginias and carolinas, where they worked the tobacco fields, the MOST important crop at the time...and this is where the problems started...

rmagedon, I am pretty sure I stated exactly how I felt...in the first line. I wasn't being sneaky. I am sorry if you cannot understand the qwuestion, but don't assume things about me. I was forthcoming.

Answer 1

If we want to maintain labor laws that prevent us from paying people dirt cheap AND we want to maintain a free market economy, we kind of need a cheap, undocumented workforce in certain sectors. If we're paying people $8/hr to pick asparagus whereas Chile pays people $8/day, that will be reflected in the U.S. price for asparagus. Now, to ensure that our asparagus has a fair shot, we could tariff the bejesus out of the Chilean asparagus, but that would contradict free market values.

Minimum wage requirements + free market + no more illegals = collapsed American markets.

What are we supposed to do? Do away with minimum wage? The fiscally liberal among us will never let that happen, so we need another way to stay competitive.

Answer 2

This is really a great question and takes some deep thinking. When you think about it, they're here already, most are working and although not paying taxes, the wages aren't that high. I'm certain that most of the ones we have in our area are illegals and they're truly doing jobs that many folks refuse to do.. things like roofing jobs on 95 degree days, etc. Yet as the same time, our unemployment rate in this country is quite low.

One of the main problems that people can argue against is the reproductive rate and the fact that those born on US soil are American citizens, by law. The thing that I really find troubling are those who have crime records, belong to street gangs, etc.

Interesting question and much food for thought.

Answer 3

I'm sorry, did the word illegal have a definition change that I was unaware of?
Actually, it makes more sense to arrest them and deport them. They are a drain on the economy and there are quite a few of them committing very serious crimes here. Why is it so difficult a concept for people to grasp that when you break a law you should be punished for it? (Unless you are Paris Hilton, but that's another story)

"If we make them legal, they can now draw on social programs, etc..." What a wonderful idea. Let's make 12 million illegal immigrants legal so they can now draw on social programs. How is that not a drain on our economy?

Tell you what, how about if I come over to your house (uninvited) use your resources, eat your food, not pay for any of it, bring a bunch more of my friends over to do the same thing and so on and so forth.What would your situation be at that point? Are you then going to offer us invitations to stay there legally? Or are you going to get really pissed off and have us arrested and removed?
I am really not going to do that I was just trying to make an illustration. I hope it helps.

Answer 4

The only thing good about having illegals and or guest workers is for a company to get labor cheap.

These people are primarily unskilled workers that even if hired legally, don't get heath insurance from the employer and are still a drain on social programs while still not paying much in taxes due to the low income level.

I am a fiscal conservative and even I can see that this an effort to depresses the wages of the honest hardworking citizens in this country.

Why would a company higher a US citizen with full pay and benefits when they can get a "guest worker" to do the same job for less than half the pay and no benefits?

Answer 5

Given that logic, we should have never freed the slaves in America. After all, we needed cotton pickers.
It took some 90 years to develop a practical mechanical cotton picker after the Civil War freed the cheap laborers. I am sure that increased labor cost in harvesting crops will lead to innovations in machinery. Machinery is only perfected to perform a task when the cost of the task perform by humans become too great.
Cheap labor does not benefit the economy. It only benefits the users of that labor. The economy benefits from advancements in technology and not from generating low wage jobs like crop pickers.

Edit:
I can't agree with your statement that our country was built on slave labor. That simply isn't true. There was no slave labor in the northern states. The main reason the south lost the war was because of the lack of infrastructure and lack of wealth generated by industry. The south lost the war because it was too poor to win.
Slave labor was never used to build bridges, roads, or rail roads. Slave labor was only used to build personal wealth, which was never used to benefit anything other than the cotton trade with England.
In addition, the wealth of the cotton growers and slave owners was exhausted by the war, and the south was in complete ruins. It was rebuilt by free men, not slaves. The argument that this country was built on slave labor is just a statement mean to instill black pride and white guilt.

Answer 6

As a fiscal conservative, I disagree. Having a illegal population paying taxes yet receiving little in terms of benefits is equivalent to taxation without representation, which is morally wrong. I would rather have equity and fairness than save a few bucks.

If you are not legally here, you should be removed. Violation of the law with regards to immigration should not be tolerated. The current immigration bill does nothing that isn't currently law. We need to enforce our immigration laws and policy. This is the most fair for everyone, citizens, legal residents, and illegal immigrants.

Answer 7

I think you are posing an argument to prove a point, is that called a strawman argument?

The overall cost of illegal immigration, whether you keep them illegal or give them amnesty, is outrageous.

And there is the point of why have any laws at all if we are only going to selectively enforce them. I mean why have laws against murder, after all they are just going to kill each other mostly, and that would be more cost effective.

No, your question is just silly, why not just come out with your opinion and call it a day, being sneaky doesn't suit you.

Answer 8

heidi,

I disagree and here is why. You way underestimate the use of inner city hospitals being used by illegals as their primary care physicians. In Denver last year according to the Denver Dept. of Health and Hospitals illegal aliens cost the city of Denver 2.1 million dollars. Illegals do receive welfare and W.I.C. as Denver, against the wishes of it's citizens named itself a sanctuary city. Most illegals according to US Department of labor are payed in cash, not on the books. Therefor, we collect no taxes, no fica, no nothing. So with those holes in your theory, I respectfully decline to take your side. I am starting a grassroots organization dedicated to removing from office any senator or congressman who votes in favor of the Bush/Kennedy (that still makes me gag) amnesty bill. It's called VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS. I encourage anyone answering a political question to tack on those four little words at the end of their answer. I'm in the process of setting up a website for shirts, bumperstickers, etc. all will be available at cost. I'm not looking to make a dime on this, I just want my country back.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS

Answer 9

No, I think that we have plenty of people in the inner city that could do those Jobs. They hurt small business in the construction sector. A big construction company hires illegals and gets 10 jobs at minimum prophet. The small guy that gets 1 job has to lower his costs and it is hard to be a success that way.
They take a lot of their earnings back to mexico so those dollars do not fund the local economy. Their kids go to public schools but many of them dont pay their share of property tax. They fill our Jails more than the average american. I dont really see any benefit that they do for anyone.

Answer 10

So you're saying it's OK to exploit illegals and burden taxpayers with the cost of social services because it's financially advantageous to companies?

If you think that illegals aren't abusing social services (for which companies like yours avoid paying by hiring illegals) you've got your head buried in some pretty deep sand.