How can one believe in the "wage gap" between men and women in light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

Question

Feminists claim that women earn an amount of money roughly proportional to 70% of men's earnings. This figure only compares the TOTAL amount that men and women make, however, which is a biased estimate for many reasons. One, many more men than women go on to become CEOs, officials, and managers, which necessarily allow one to earn more. Two, women choose their careers differently than men do, often opting for more time off, flexible schedules, health insurance, and job security than men do. Female choice, in my opinion, is the most important factor active in the supposed wage gap, and national statistics seem to agree with me:

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba392/... (National Center for Policy Analysis)

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/21/commenta... (CNN Money, a widely trusted source for commerce and business)

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0112roberts.html (An Ifeminists article critical of feminism)

This is the evidence I have brought to the table. I ask that arguments against this evidence, if possible, be sensible and sourced.

Apparently, the first two links don't work, so here they are in a functional form:

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba392/

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/21/commentary/everyday/sahadi/index.htm

Did I say I support war, Dierdre? You think I would like to see some children die on a battlefield?

I don't. I'm not going to insult you either, although I will analyze the sources I've seen.

The last of your three sources was probably best, although there was an amazing common theme:

1) The differential in TOTAL earnings is and has been lessening.
2) In professions where women are a substantial part of the work force, earnings are roughly 98-99% of the total.
3) Certain measures of the wage gap claim appear to factor in a biased amount of education if you check the 3rd source.

and, most importantly...

4) Although each article discusses "discrimination," none can give satisfactory instances, reasons, or, indeed, even proof of such discrimination.

You are correct in saying that there IS a wage gap, Carrie; I should have said "How can one believe the wage gap is a result of discrimination." The third source supposed that about 12% of the explanatory factor was discrimination-

which, of course, is nowhere near the majority.

In any event, the majority of your argument appears to be built around the "class struggle" idea. Of course, the rich shouldn't be the focus, but the businessman has always been the focus in capitalism, and it won't change because of a few mixed in socialist principles.

which, of course, is nowhere near the majority.

In any event, the majority of your argument appears to be built around the "class struggle" idea. Of course, the rich shouldn't be the focus, but the businessman has always been the focus in capitalism, and it won't change because of a few mixed in socialist principles.

I don't think I'll be needing an artificial heart or brain, either, Dierdre, especially since the heart doesn't regulate emotion but rather blood motion and circulation. Didn't we figure that out a couple centuries ago? Decent attempt at an insult, however.

Oh, and Lotus, no, I do not read those things. I have just been wanting to ask a useful question and get input (especially from feminists) on how they believe the wage gap is somehow caused by discrimination rather than choice.

Why do I post here? To get information and to debate topics concerning feminism, mainly. I don't hate women, I just hate lies and I like exposing the truth. The fact that I've read about "discrimination" against men hardens me sometimes, but my ultimate purpose is as I listed it above.

Oh, and Lotus, no, I do not read those things. I have just been wanting to ask a useful question and get input (especially from feminists) on how they believe the wage gap is somehow caused by discrimination rather than choice.

Why do I post here? To get information and to debate topics concerning feminism, mainly. I don't hate women, I just hate lies and I like exposing the truth. The fact that I've read about "discrimination" against men hardens me sometimes, but my ultimate purpose is as I listed it above.

*Wait- I do occasionally post in other forums, but their topics are usually QUESTIONS that one can answer with an encyclopedia rather than topics one can debate.

Draecoiram, I agree with you. This sentence in particular emphasizes it (a woman speaking, of course):

"Women often get paid less because we allow it."

Marketing of one's one skills and labor is certainly a part of a career. To get raises, one must usually be pretty proactive and assertive. Women don't tend to do this (they at least do it less often, sometimes, as the article pointed out, for social/psychological reasons) as often as men do. I wonder what percentage of that "unexplained" 12% is explained by this fact?

Wow- some cop out, Baba Yaga, but I didn't expect anything more from the likes of you. Go back to trolling.

Wow- some cop out, Baba Yaga, but I didn't expect anything more from the likes of you. Go back to trolling if you can't answer questions.

Answer 1

This idea got wide exposure in the media but the critique never got the same play. So people remember this but are not aware it's untrue. It also serves certain interests to have a quantifiable discrepancy demonstrating the inequality of men and women.

Answer 2

Possibly because as a researcher, I learned how statistics are manipulated by the gatherer to reflect what he/she decided were the right answers in the first place. This practice has become a sterotype in advertising, certain sciences and politics. The outcome of many "statisticians" is in many cases pre-ordained by the person or group ordering the survey. Baseball stats have witnesses, but in today's corporations, employment figures are falsified; "amped up" to satisfy government and private "nosey Parkers," and the real people who know the answers are the employees required to sign "loyalty oaths" upon hire. Great Britain was observed by Sir Winston Churchill to be "a nation of shopkeepers." America on the other hand is a "nation of lawyers, public relations flacks and paid lobbyists whom double often as advertising execs.
Married women do make those choices disgorged by the querent, or used to before the feminists gave them information and voice, single women do not as they have less to lose and more to gain if they can swim free of the sharks and piranhas in the corporate pool.

Answer 3

Do you know how many men get promoted into higher positions instead of equally or more competent women? I have myself been boycotted while the company promoted an incompetent male co-worker of mine and then kept on having me do all the work and him get the credit for it.

Women have less chances of reaching higher positions, even if they want to and have showed they would be capable of handling those positions. Men simply choose men rather than women when it comes to filling higher positions. Women have limited chances of reaching a well paid position. The men in charge think of us as decoration or assistants, not as brainpower with as much potentials as the men.

Many women have to both work full time and take care of the family and the home. They are usually the ones who must shop, cook, clean, put the kids to bed after work, leave work when something comes up with the kids etc., so it is no wonder that they need more flexibility than men who don't need to do all that on top of their work. Women today try to get their husbands to contribute more to the house work so that they can pursue their careers too, but they still don't get the same opportunities as men on the job market.

Answer 4

....there are several factors that contribute to the wage gap. No one has ever denied that, not even your loathed feminists. The point is this: regardless of the reasons, there remains a wage gap. That cannot be denied. There is no "supposed" wage gap - there IS a wage gap. From there, it is important to look at the reasons. Does "choice" factor in? Of course. But that doesn't mean that the wage gap should be dismissed - it means that we either need to adjust our 1950's mode of production model, (which would include making available affordable, quality daycare), or men need to step up to the plate and do some of the unpaid work as well, which includes assuming that his wife's career is as important as his.

I also hesitate to use the word "choice," although I did above. If a woman wants a family, and her husband's career is deemed more important than hers, then it is not a "choice" to take maternity leave. It is not a "choice" to stay home when the kids are sick. It is not a "choice" to leave work at 4:30 every day to pick up the children from school. These things MUST be done, and if they MUST be done by the woman, then naturally her career will suffer.

So yes, the wage gap exists. And it is a combination of discrimination and life situations that women must attend to. But those factors don't make it false.

EDIT: I already know what you're going to come back wiht, so I will spare you from typing it all out. If you're going to say something along the lines of "well women CHOOSE to have families, so if you don't want to do the sh*t work, don't have kids," here's my answer: Yes, women do choose to have families. But that's something that's necessary to keep our society thriving. And the fact is, women do need to work to support themselves and their families. Our society should accomodate working families, and we don't, which is evident in part by women's lower wages. Our society shouldn't be structured to benefit the few - i.e. rich people - it should be structured so everyone has equal chances and opportunities.

Answer 5

The only area that I now see a big disparage in is the CEO, CFO positions - men do make more than women in these areas when the female CEO's, CFO's work long hours just like their male counterparts. The link below is for Non Profit companies but the for profit counterparts numbers are very similar. The gap is however quickly closing.

Answer 6

It is unfortunate for the majority that this myth has lived so long. It's longevity is due to the actions of a very few who, like Goebbels, told a lie, told it often and people came to believe it. The propaganda in this case is from feminists.
To say there is a pay gap between men and women overall, is pointing out that there is a pay gap between part-time and full-time employees.
Women can earn every bit as much as men but not until they take on the same responsibility and danger as men. Crying because the female clerk sitting in an air conditioned office is making less than the roughneck that is exposed to the rain, snow and below zero temperatures is typical of feminism.

If women want to earn the same as a man, they simply have to do the same jobs as well as a man. In 18 years in the oilfield, I never saw one woman on a drilling rig, driving an oil field truck, operating a bulldozer, digging a pipeline trench or anywhere EXCEPT in the air conditioned, dry and comfortable office shuffling papers, 9-5 M-F. They don't deserve the same pay as the guy handling 3,000# drill stems (which is one of the most dangerous jobs) in the middle of a snow storm at midnight on Xmas eve with temperatures near or below zero in the middle of a 60 hour workweek. I've seen men do this with regularity... in fact, I've BEEN one of them.
For that matter, I've never seen a woman on a garbage truck, either.

To claim that companies pay women less than men (without any proof, I might add), is ludicrous. Companies are in business to make money; one of the most expensive costs is labor. Any business that could hire women more cheaply would hire only women. They don't. They hire people that can perform the specific jobs as cheaply as possible.
Fact is, it is illegal (both state and federal legislation) to pay anyone less based on their sex. Full stop.

What feminist seem to want is to pay women equal to the highest paid man, regardless the difference in duty, performance, ability, seniority or attendance.

What we have is one group, women, that defers the dirty, difficult and dangerous jobs to another group, men, yet wants the same pay for a job not done.

Here's an example:
I've been off work for a few months for personal reasons. I have no income other than investments. Millions of women will make many thousands of dollars more than I will this year. Were I a feminist, I could claim this is a matriarchy keeping my wages lower than women.
When I go back to work, I can claim that I'm not being paid as much as the woman who didn't take time off. I can demand to be part time and use that to show a wage descrepancy between her and me. I can demand only safe, clean work during only regular office hours (weekends, nights and holidays off) and any woman who works those times being paid more is just more evidence that there is sexual discrimination.

Employees who don't work as long, as hard or stay with the job do not deserve the same pay as those who do. Calling it discrimination based on sex is a lie but about average for feminism.

Answer 7

Your evidence is not the only out there and here are three example of verifiable data that I can offer to the contrary.
Wages for women are getting better but this is only because of Pay Equity legislation and other government interventions that have been put into play by lobbying from feminist groups.
Furthermore women who choose to stay home and raise children which I personally feel is the most important career there is for men or women are not given any monetary compensation for this. They should be given health benefits, wages and some kind of pension adjustment. This is arguably one of the key points behind women especially those who choose to be stay at home mums being penalized for doing so. This is your predominantly male headed government who has made this decision not feminists. Your government feels it is more important to spent billions of dollars on war, killing and sending children off to be slaughtered. This is hardly the feminist dogma. By the way there is no need to try and insult me now because I do have a right to an opinion whether you believe it or not. This change in attitude hopefully will come to you as you mature otherwise you probably will need a artificial functioning heart to go with that brain of yours.

Answer 8

"women's unwillingness to "rock the boat" is a big reason why, according to the Economic Policy Institute, the wage gap between college-educated women and their male counterparts has actually gotten bigger since the mid-'90s. A decade ago, women earned 75.7 cents for each dollar paid to a man. Now it's 74.7 cents."

so, to an extent you are right that women contribute to this themselves. they need to demand that they get equal pay for equal work. the link gives tips on how to do this. the figures for the wage gap compare the same job positions, so some of your conclusions are based on incorrect assumptions.

Answer 9

Well..if someone is able to show me a man who is better paid than a woman for the same work...I will offer the difference...it ' impossible. it s impossible by law in big companies, and it s impossible by the market:: who would be glad to pay more a man if he could have the same thing for less from a woman.
This is the situation in Italy. I think it s the same in every european country.
About the domestic work: well, what about take the money from the family? If a woman cook for the hubbie, why it s up to me to pay.
But I know: women will go on to complain.....

Answer 10

Funny, are you reacting to the Yahoo! front page story on the wage gap or is this purely by chance that it's in Yahoo! headlines today? http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/102725/Why-Women-Get-Paid-Less Also please satisfy my "feminine curiosity" and tell me what motivates you, to only post and answer in this forum and on women's issues?
I actually don't agree with this article but thought the coincidence was interesting. But the wage gap I believe affects more lower middle-class and poor women, not educated women, but it does exist there too.

EDIT: I don't like adding to an original answer and you do it quite a bit. But you answered my question about why you post so much in this category is because the other categories lack debate..so I am under the assumption that you enjoy debating with women you find it intellectually stimulating?
And your "problem" with women isn't necessarily that you find us inferior (especially intellectually) but that you argue that feminism is misguided and you are in favor of the patriarchal family? but what about single moms and lesbians or are they too much of a threat to this patriarchal rule?