possible ick situation - hoping for better answers than the LFS gave?

Question

ok, here's the situation.

i had a 10G with 5 guppies (2 M 3 F) 2 baby (one inch) albine BN plecos (they're moving into a 30G breeder once they hit around 2 inches) 1 big golden (apple? mystery?) snail and several (4?) other snails that seemed to have hitched rides from past plants. my tank is pretty heavily planted. about 4 days ago 30 guppy fry were added to the mix, but they're going back to the LFS once they enlargen.
i've dealt with ICK before with goldfish - got the tell-tale "salt" spots and managed to treat it with "RID ICK" or some such thing, but i had no plants at the time. now i'm seeing some (very few at this point) white spots on one or two of the guppies that are more like grains of powder than grains of salt. really really tiny compared with the ick on the goldies. Can the ick spots vary this much in size? could this be something else?
also, is there a treatment that i can use with plants/fry/inverts so i don't have to separate out everyone?

thanks in advance!

i want to make a note that i live in a "china town" area which gives me 5 nearby LFSs, most of which are good, but all of which come with huge language barriers that have caused problems in the past. last time i brought a fish in for them to look at and give advice for, they thought i was angry and trying to shame them with a sick fish they sold me or something, and kept offering me things to make me happier about the fish, not really understanding i was just asking for help! i can talk to other fish stores over the phone, but i'm kinda wary of them - they keep telling me that the really chemical/metal laden ick treatments ARE safe for plants/inverts, when every aquaria forum i read says otherwise. at this point i'm stuck with "polling" every site i can find and seeing which answers sound the wisest.

i might end up taking pictures of the spots and posting them somewhere (if i can get the poor things to keep still enough for a photo shoot!)

Answer 1

The short answer is no to your final question. You will have to remove any snails from the tank that you want to save. Snails are inverts and would be killed by any ick medication that's truely effective.

In my opinion the best course of action is to treat the ick in the tank with malachite green. You would have to remove any snails you wish to save, but otherwise it will be more than tough to get rid of the ick. Yes, it can be harmful to some plants, but any effective treatment will be to be honest.

You can treat by removing all of the fish to another tank and treating the ick there as far as on the fish. Of course, that will leave ick in the tank, but it will die without a host in 10-14 days. Not the best option in my opinion as the longer you wait to return the fish the better the odds of no ick, but also the longer you wait the more degraded your cycle will become unless you feed it something to produce ammonia.

Salt in the tank would be damaging to the plants as would heat high enough to kill the ick. Malachite green should not be harmful to the plants in the long run, but of course would kill the snails.

It's entirely possible you are dealing with something other than ick, but odds are still good that it is ick. Ick spots can vary considerably in size and start smaller than just before they drop off the fish. Most anything else likely to cause spots like you describe would also be a parasite and effectively treated by the malachite green. Given the information you have provided, I would treat the tank for parasites with malachite green and hope this takes care of the problem. Should it not some other symptoms should be apparent in a few more days.

Another possible treatment option would be the use of a UV sterilizer or a diatom filter to kill / filter out the ick when it's in the free swimming stage. Slow but effective and very expensive unless you happen to have one of these items around already.

MM

Answer 2

The only way to ensure your snails survive is to remove them. However you can treat the tank with Kick Ich which is also safe for your gasto's, plants inverts etc. (Fresh and salt water)

Remember with Kick Ich it doesn't matter what kind of ich you have it will treat all 3 different kinds.
I have used this in the past with MUCH success.

Here is more as to what kind of ich you may have:

Is it white spot disease or is it Ich? You need to know the difference between the two since they are treated differently.

Cryptocaryoniasis, White Spot Disease or Marine Ich is caused by an infestation of the ciliated protozoan Cryptocaryon irritans. Although Cryptocaryon becomes a parasitic organism at one stage in its life cycle like Oodinium and Brooklynella do, and it progesses less rapidly than these other ich diseases, in a closed aquarium system it can reach overwhelming and disasterous numbers just the same if it is not diagnosed and treated upon recognition.

Unlike Oodinium and Brooklynella that typically attack the gills first, which allows these ich diseases to advance into life-threatening levels quickly as they go unnoticed, Cryptocaryon usually appears at the onset as salt-sized white spots visible on the body and fins of a host fish, and when the organisms become parasitic, it is then that they move inwards to the gills. Because crypto is more easily recognized in its beginning stage, this makes it much easier to treat and cure before it gets out of control.

Aside from the appearance of the white spots, fish will scratch against objects in an attempt to dislodge the parasites, and rapid respiration develops as tomonts, mucus, and tissue debris clogs the gills. Fish become listless, refuse to eat, loss of color occurs in patches or blotches as the trophonts destroy the pigment cells, and secondary bacterial infections invade the lesions caused by the trophonts.

Although copper is very effective on Oodinium, and it works well to eliminate crypto organisms in their free-swimming tomite stage, it is not as effective on the Cryptocaryon trophonts that burrow deeply into the tissues of fish. A combination of freshwater and formalin treatments adminstered by means of dips, baths, and prolonged treatment over a period of time in a QT is recommended

Reinfection will occur no matter how effectively the fish have been treated if Cryptocaryon is not eradicated from the main aquarium, which can be accomplished by keeping the tank devoid of any fish for at least 4 weeks. For fish-only aquariums hyposalinity can be applied, and to speed up the life cycle of the organisms, elevate the tank temperature to 85 degrees for 10 days to 12 days. For treating reef tanks, FishVet No-Ich Marine, Ruby Reef Kick-Ich, and Chem-Marin Stop Parasites are Cryptocaryon specific remedies that are said to be "reef safe". Several days prior to returning fish to the main aquarium, clean all filtering equipment, change any filtering materials, and do a water change.

Remember to remove all filters media and turn off protein skimmers when treating for any types of Ich.

Although many over-the-counter remedies contain the general name Ich or Ick, carefully read the product information to be sure it is designed to specifically target and treat "Cryptocaryon"

Brooklynella hostilis - these protozoa reproduce asexually by means of simple binary fission through conjugation, which is why they are able to multiply so much more rapidly than Cryptocaryon (White Spot), and Oodinium (Velvet Ich), and why it can kill fish within a few days and even hours upon recognition

Most similar symptomatically to Oodinium, this too is a parasite that primarily attacks the gills first. At the onset fish may scrap up against objects, rapid respiration develops, and fish often gasp for air at the surface as the gills become clogged with mucus. Fish become lethargic, refuse to eat, and colors fade, but the most noticeable difference that sets Brooklynella apart from Oodinium is the heavy amount of slime that is produced. As the disease progresses a thick whitish mucus covers the body, usually starting at the head and spreading outward, skin lesions appear, and it is not uncommon for signs of secondary bacterial infections to arise.

Suggestions range from copper, malachite green and other remedies, with some recommended being used in conjunction with formaldehyde. However the general consensus is these types of medications are either largely ineffective or do not work at all, and that the best and most effective treatment for Brooklynella is formaldehyde alone. Typically a standard 37% formalin solution (shop & compare prices) is mixed with either fresh or saltwater in a separate treatment container, initially all fish are given a quick dip or a prolonged bath, followed by continued treatment and care in a QT. Of course the longer fish are exposed to the formalin treatment, the more effective it will be at eliminating this "disease". Whether to administer a dip or a bath to start with is something you will have to determine yourself, but there's a very simple way to do this.

Since these are Free swimming parasites which are in watersources, come attached to our fish etc. The only way to ensure NO ICH is to get a UV Sterilizer and addit to the tank. The UV Sterilizer kills the free swimming forms of various ich and other parasites.

Hope this helps


Please note: the Myth about salt killing ich is just that a myth. Ich parasites don't like salt but it doesn't kill them. Dumping high amounts of salt into your tank will do your fish no good and won't rid it of ich. Even the smallest amount does not affect ich. Also, the temperatures required for killing ich are way too high for your fish to survive. Kick ich really does do wonders.

Answer 3

They can vary quite a lot but there are other diseases also, like fungus for example. Go to your local pet shop or what you have and see if they can help you.