How many Americans are aware of these numbers?

Question

Casualties World War I
United States 117,465 (0.1% of the population)
France 1,897,800 (4.8% of the population)

Casualties World War II
United States 418,500 (0.32% of population)
France 562,000 (1.35% of population)

In other words, as a percentage of population, the French lost 48 times more citizens killed in WWI and more than 4 times as many killed in WWII.

In World War I, French combat deaths as a percentage of those mobilized were the highest of any country in the war. More than 16 of every 100 French soldiers died in battle. The comparable figure for the United States was less than 3.

Perhaps it is time for those Americans who insult our oldest ally to stop and actually think about the basis of what they are saying.

Addendum 1: By the way, for the responder who noted that the French went into WWI with cavalry carrying sabers, I would point out that the United States went into World War TWO with a horse cavalry division as did, in fact, most nations, including the Germans. the Russians fielded an entire Cavalry Army (which included both horse and mechanized units).

As for the French SS "division" (actually at regimental strength), its true of course but then there were also SS divisions fielded from almost every ethnic group from Bosnian Muslims to Norwegians. There were even a few British and American SS toopers.

Addendum 2 The point here, in case you miss it, is not to demonstrate that one country is better than the other or to attack or defend any one particular policy of either country, but to point out that the gratuitous insults proffered by glib American radio show hosts and various political hacks concerning France's military history don't deserve the constant repeating I see in this forum.

Answer 1

I'm an older person whose father fought in WWI. I was aware that both England and France lost a whole generation of young men. The French also had a huge number of men who were invalids for the rest of their lives due to their war injuries.

As a chlld, I knew quite a few older ladies, friends of my mother, who were what we called "old maids". Many of them had a picture of a young man in military uniform on their dresser. I asked my mother about this and she several times told me that the lady in question had lost a fiance in the war. With a whole generation of men being gone before their time, there was a whole generation of women who lived out their lives alone. Very sad.

I don't understand why Americans become so hostile if anyone questions our ideas. If you're not with me, you're against me? What, no one's allowed to have a different opinion than ours? In many ways, our nation behaves in the way that abusive men behave. Most men who are bullies become outraged if anyone questions them. I find this very sad.

A lot can be learned from stopping to question why others don't agree with us. Have they had an experience which leads them to another conclusion? Perhaps we'd be smart to question and listen to our critics before discounting their views.

The French have a reputation for being rude. I'd be willing to bet that most of the people who cite this belief have never actually met a Frenchman or woman! Americans are isolated. Many, many don't have a passport and have not been out of the US and all they know is what they've been told by a media which is owned by large corporations and don't do a very good job of presenting world affairs.

Americans have been isolated from the direct effects of war. During WWII, people were shocked at how brutal the Nazis were, but Americans at home didn't suffer any direct consequences of war. We weren't bombed. We didn't have our towns occupied by an enemy. I think Europeans had a much different experience which has made them much more aware of nations other than their own. With the exception of 9/11 and a few other terrorist actions, Americans haven't had to deal with the violence first hand. That has kept us more insular.

Answer 2

The reason so many more French were killed was because that WAS the front. They took the brunt of the invasions, while its been a long time since America fought a war on its own soil.

(Look at the Russian casualties in WWII. Its almost unbelievable.)

An American could also argue (convincingly) that if it wasn't for the US, France would be no more.

But I'd say, that's history. Let's look at what each has done recently. (I'd argue that just about 4 years ago to the day, the US made a huge mistake, and France took the right path.)

Answer 3

Hi Rilifanne, what's up? :o)

There is one thing France and the USA share : Jerks! don't talk about you rilifanne but I'm fed up of those (french or americans) who try to feed a weak war.

Our 2 countries always supported, without France, the USA would be under the cut of the racists and the reciprocal is true, we were there against the confederated troops and the USA saved us from the Nazis, that's the real relationships between our countries.

When we said "no" to the war in Iraq, it wasn't against the USA, the USA were not threatened nor attacked, If they were attacked, we would have been the first to take weapons. Chirac was the first president to come after the 9/11, don't forget it. We had terrible wars in our country, that's why we ALL say : no more! In France (or Germany) we all have a grand father who suffered with that ****.

Thanx rilifanne for the question, I fight here in France against the opponents to america, Bush is not all the americans, French are not your enemies.

Answer 4

Thank you for your statistics and explanations. I think it is high time people started fighting back against the big bullies. I live in the U.S., but am Canadian and I have travelled extensively all over Europe. I have seen and heard many things over in Europe about the wars and how devastating they were on the Germans, English, French, Italians, Austrians, Dutch, etc... It's funny how all we tend to hear about here is how the Americans saved World War II and how they are the "only" ones doing anything about aggressors today. However, if you speak to Americans who have travelled outside the country to some of the countries in Europe, they are not so quick to speak anymore. I think the realization of what the world really thinks starts to set in. And the fact that it's not really all about the U.S. over there. We all have a right to our opinion and patriotism, however, don't do it blindly and give credit to the wrong people. Yes, the French did suffer a great loss in both World Wars. More than any of us over here in North America could ever fathom. Thank you for arming yourself with real information rather than just opinion with no merits. I wish more people would think with their heads rather than their hearts.

Answer 5

Well said.

Having a look at the figures of wounded and Civilian deaths
is even more greater (From Wiki)

WWI
Civilian Deaths, Wounded Soldiers

France 500,000 4,266,000
USA 757 205,690

WWII
Civilian Deaths, Wounded Soldiers

France 267,000 562,000
USA 11,200 418,500


Edit.

Having a think about it the numbers of actual soliders killed or wounded in Europe would be less than the figures above simply due to the fact that the USA there also fighting the Japanese in the pafic ocean.

Answer 6

You are right, americans easily forget these numbers. They forget that their country avoided entering both world wars for as long as it could.
You are right also, in 1941, despite what had happened in Europe, the U.S. went into the war totally unprepared, with obsolete tanks and warplanes.

As for the French SS division Charlemagne, it was indeed not a full sized unit with only about 7000 men, but more than 100 000 French from Alsace and Moselle were forced to join Wehrmacht to fight in the Russian front (they are known as "Malgré Nous")

Answer 7

How about the number of actual troops killed in WWII?
France 213,000
USA 418,000

Of course the French lost more civilians in the World Wars - the wars were physically located in Europe! But the US lost twice as many actual SOLDIERS in WWII, sending troops halfway across the world to fight.

Besides, the numbers you cited about WWI (3 soldiers killed for every 100 soldiers in the US and 16/100 in France) point to France being in the conflict longer and perhaps a little less prepared for warfare. I don't think that really helps your point.

Answer 8

As a response to Jim, above, A Frenchman could argue (no less convincingly) that America never would have existed if it weren't for France's help in the Revolutionary war.

As far as the military goes, I read an article by an American General (former commander of NATO) saying that France has the most capable army in Europe, and that they can "hang" with almost anybody.

Answer 9

Maybe the French should remember where they wold have been if the US hadn't engaged at all. Verstehen

The French Army actually went to war in 1914 wearing the famous red trousers, the cavalry wearing steel breastplates, helmets and sabers little changed since the Napoleonic wars, convinced that elan would carry them through the German fortifications. They were mowed down like wheat.

The U.S. suffered about 300,000 battle deaths during WWII (European and Pacific Theaters combined). France suffered about 200,000 battle deaths. Many of the U.S. battle deaths occurred during the liberation of France. Some occurred at the hands of the French military during our invasion of North Africa. After surrendering to the Germans, the French became notorious Nazi collaborators.

The 33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr. 1) and Charlemagne Regiment are collective names used for units of French volunteers in the Wehrmacht and later Waffen-SS during the World War II.

Answer 10

Is it a contest? Even one dead is too much! We both (Americans and French) suffered during wars. Can you see any difference between an American dead and a French dead? Both are human, aren't they?