How can people possibly feel that the founding fathers wanted the church and state to be intertwined?

Question

I always a hear a certain group of people on here saying, "Our country was founded by Christian morals, and the liberals are trying every chance they get to take God out of our government."

Since our founding fathers are no longer here, I will quote them for you:

Thomas Jefferson: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

James Madison: "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States," "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States"

Why then do people constantly insist that our forefather's wanted the church to have a strong influence in matters of the state???

Littlelamb, the facts our outlined in our constitution, and the two shall remain separated if I have anything to do with it. This country is no more yours than it is mine.

The facts, sweetheart, are right in front of you.

And the funny thing is that people like Queen think that I am not a Christian. I am one, I just don't feel that the church has the right idea these days. I love Jesus, it's his followers and their power-grabs that disgust me.

Hey Dylan...in God We Trust was 1st printed on money during the Civil War (not founding father era), as a way to unify the nation, at a time when brothers were fighting brothers.

The pledge in 1892...again a relatively modern addition to America.

Again, not our founding father's intention.

Answer 1

Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of "The Declaration of Independence" were orthodox, deeply committed, Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention. It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society, immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation.

Patrick Henry is one of our forefathers. You will probably recognize the last line of this famous qoute:

"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

OR
The following year, 1776, he wrote this:"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."

Another Forefather and one you qouted:
Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote in the front of his well-worn Bible: "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

He was also the chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most important role.

AND Another
James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this:"We have staked the whole future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

Nuff said, OUR country was founded by Christians. Not the religious hypocrites that you think are Christians. True Christians know the teachings of the Bible and hear the Spirit of God speak to their soul. It's something that you will never understand as an unbeliever.

Maybe someday though you will realize the Christ died on the cross for your sins, rose from the dead to heaven and sent the Holy Spirit as a guide to living a holy, happy life. I have been down both roads and I know peace with my Saviour. I pray some day you will find that too. God bless you with love and clarity.

For someone who's so liberal and up for a debate you sure don't let anyone else conflict with yours!

I stand on my facts missy!
I have read those works and I do know what you are talking about. I do believe this country was founded on Christian beliefs. I do also believe that a lot of this information has been supressed. I don't randomly forward every conservative email that I receive, I check things for facts.
BTW I have questioned values of other christians who are on the fence and have no value in the greatness of the Spirit of God. I do not blindly follow what my church has been telling me, but rather listen to what I have read over a long period of time. The pastor you so quickly put down who wrote the article I qouted wrote from a book that I read when I was in high school and there were a LOT of references.
I grew up Christian and fell away from the time I was out of high school until last year. I know there is good and I know there is evil. I have reaped what I sowed and also have found the faith I had as a child again. Sometimes the greatest joy in life is knowing that God loves you and always will. And once again I hope you will not be so blind to realize that someday.

AND if you need more look at the original correspondances between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. http://www.nhc.rtp.nc.us/pds/livingrev/religion/text3/adamsjeffersoncor.pdf

Answer 2

If you reread what Jefferson said, he stated their will be no state sponsored church. He is referring to the Church of England.

Keeping Church and Civil laws separate ensures the state respects all religions.
Creating laws that prohibit the showing of Christian emblems, is against the Constitution. Creating laws the prohibit the showing of the ten commandments anywhere is a law which by our Constitution is illegal.

What the founding fathers want is a set of laws based on the ten commandments. These commandments cover all aspects of social life, by them self. If these were the only ten laws people could live together without strife and civilly. It is not possible to make laws for each and every circumstance, therefore, it is necessary to make general laws and hope you have covered enough to keep the honest, honest. Those who wish to use the law for their advantage no matter how dishonest, you cannot make enough laws.

Some, only wish take the separation between church and state to be defined as the separation of state to Christianity.
One can be used as a way to work with, the other is to make one above the other. Judeo-Christian laws are the backbone of our Judicial system.

I believe many people are trying to remove all semblance of Christianity from our laws and buildings. I do not want this to happen. The federal judicial system should not take any case that has anything to do with religion. The Supreme Court should send each and every case they have heard and send them back to the states where it should be heard. Those that have to do with our currency, emblems, and any other federal system should be dismissed. Stating the State cannot make a law regarding religion, either for or against.

First, get Christian out of the state, then get the Jews, then Islam can move in and make all the laws. This will make sure, I am an outlaw.

Answer 3

Actually, the founding fathers opened up congressional sessions with a prayer. The amendment never prohibited the mixing of church and state, it simply stated that the federal government would make no law establishing a religion (i.e. a religion endorsed by the government as the official religion) and no law prohibiting the exercise of religion (i.e. we can all choose our own religion). The states were free to do so (establish a state religion) because the amendment was a limit on federal government. It had not been imposed on the states through the 14th amendment until later in time, through judicial interpretation. It is through judicial interpretation and developing jurisprudence that the clause has been expanded to what it is today- which promotes, in theory albeit not as much in practice, a broader meaning of separation of church and state.

As to how people can feel any given way- well- because we are free to!

Answer 4

You are so right. And the founding fathers being well educated and wise in these matters. The best and most charitable people are inspired and guided by religious beliefs even when they may not be members of an organized religion or church, some of the worse crimes have also been committed in the name of religion. So keeping the great inspiration seeded by religion apart from the power of government is an extremely wise thing for our country.

Answer 5

You Know, I agree with you. The Church and purist ideals did have a HUGE influence, but they were sick of the Church running the government. PC (political correctness) is strange for me to interpret though. I mean, I know that they wanted the separation of church and state, but I think they were more afraid of Judges quoting scripture and laying the law, judicial rulings based on a "vision", or the church growing so large it would threaten public officials eternal damnation if they didn't obey the bible, over if the money had "in God we trust" or a sculpture of the ten commandments (historically, not only written, a huge representation of the judicial system and moral base of one of the most documented nations).

Answer 6

You have a limited view based on personal prejudice. People do not want religion to influence government they want to keep government from influencing their religion. A subtle but distinct difference. They want to continue the ability to have Christmas trees displayed or tohang a Star of David.

It was an accepted practice of the time to pray in Congress and Schools. To read from religious matter in school. This in fact was still being done when I attended school. It was not taught just read not commented on by teachers or students.

If one is not interested or does not believe what is the fear that others may derive some degree of comfort from these practices? When Government limits these practices then what has happened to the "Strongly guarded... separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."

It was not a that our forefathers wanted "the church" as there has never been a "the church" in the United States it was instead that they wanted freedom to worship in a manner that was comfortable for all citizens. Thereby providing also for those who did not wish to worship.

What is your fear are you afraid you will wake up with a modicum of faith?

Answer 7

The problem is that the churches in question, or the leaders therein, want political power.

Separation of church and state is indeed what is imbedded into the Constitution. And it is a two way street. The government should not put any religion above another. And any clergy that advocates one political party or candidate over another should lose its tax exempt status, as they have crossed the boundary.

Answer 8

The idea of the "separation of church and state" was that no one religion would have any undue influence on the affairs of the United States. Whether it was the policies and/or conduct of business. You have to remember a lot of colonists came to the New World to escape religious persecution. That is truly what they were trying to avoid. Churches had a lot of influence in many European countries.

Answer 9

Amen! When the Founding Fathers wrote that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof" what they meant was that we need to keep all the goddamn Christians out of the government. Any politician with sincere Christian beliefs must be run out of office, and Christians should be prohbited from voting altogether.

Answer 10

They were basically referring to the promotion of a state sponsored religion, not the absence of any government influence that may stem from, or be related to religious or moral values.

Let's get it right folks.