Do you think that when the early feminists fought for women's rights they could have anticipated this?

Question

I mean the current state-of-affairs. I am beginning to wonder whether feminism has done women as many favours as we might at first think. For example, the death of manners is almost intrinsically linked to feminism - most men don't give up their seats or hold the door for a woman any more and some don't even feel the need to modify their language or treat women nicely.

Also, there is a tendency now for women to feel like they 'have' to have a career. They are also compelled to go out to work rather than look after their children if they so choose.

I'm not suggesting that feminism wasn't great in many ways - equal pay for equal work or Child Support, for example, but do you think that, in many ways, it has made life much harder for women nowadays?

Just before I sign this one off, I just have to have a little laugh (tee hee hee ho hum) at all these stupid sods who are attempting to tell ME (with poor punctuation and even worse spelling) that I don't understand the concepts of feminism.

I'd like to suggest that those idiots perhaps got onto their high horses so quickly that they didn't quite understand the nature of my question. I didn't say that feminism was a bad thing - I asked if THE EARLY FEMINISTS COULD HAVE ANTICIPATED THE WAY THAT SOCIETY HAS DEGENERATED SINCE THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT. Some of you people are proper dunces ... you do know that, don't you?

ps: I aim this, in particular, at the stupid little nancy who suggested I 'read a few books and educate myself'. If only you knew, idiot, who you were talking to!

Answer 1

Perhaps not, but it was predictable. The suffragettes didn't achieve votes for women, it was their contribution during the first world war that earned them that right.

The more strident feminists were always in it for themselves, in the sense that they wanted to compete with men in the workplace, invade traditional male territory, and where necessary, change the rules so that they could compete successfully. It could be said that they held male aspirations, but were trapped inside a female body. This is not typical of females generally though.

One of the problems brought about by feminism, is that, for many of the more traditional minded women, it has tended to be imposed upon them, when, in fact, they don't fully subscribe to it. Of course, they will have been willing to accept any financial benefits, but were unaware of some of the social downside referred to in the subtext of your question.

In the past, we had gentlemanly behaviour toward women, but that arose during a period when men and women didn't compete with each other, they complimented each other, respecting and appreciating each others differences.

Any man who doesn't go along with the feminist ideal, whatever that is, is castigated as a M.C.P. This is irony indeed, coming from probably the most chauvinistic movement on the planet, 'feminism'.

In the public sector, equal pay has been available for women for many many years. The loss of the traditional male role of bread winner, has tended to encourage fecklessness among young males, the undermining of marriage, encouragement of single parenthood, concept of man not needed, ladette culture etc.

Males and females have always been equal morally and before God, but they are not the same. The relationship between the sexes shouldn't be seen as merely a function of the workplace, there are much wider social issues to be considered.

The more ardent feminists want women to be as independant of men as possible. That is why the Government, given its left wing agenda, wants to get as many women into the workplace as possible, irrespective of whether they want it.

The country has now been feminised in terms of the values we now attach to things. Male banter has been killed off, and replaced by possible accusations of sexism, racism etc.

I think nature will win in the end though, and the more traditional women will decide to tell the feminist zealots that it isn't what they want.

This is a very big subject, and you rarely read a balanced treatment of it. There will always be those, either because of nurture or nature, will choose to ignore the differences between the sexes.

Answer 2

Every good thing has some bad coming with it and vice versa. I can easily give up my 'right' to seats or doors being open in favour of being treated like a decent human being and not like some little woman who knows nothing. What I really disagree with is the fact that these days women are pressured to 'have it all'. With successful celebrities promoting the fact that you can have a good career, you can be a good mum, have a fantastic house, holidays and designer clothes and still be a very sexy, gorgeous woman, a lot of women feel compelled to follow that path but without all the help of servants, baby sitters, maids, personal trainers and personal shoppers etc. The truth is you can't have it all. You've got to make a decision: you can either be a housewife or a career woman (or just a kept woman) but I think it is important that you can have a choice and you don't have to be married by the time you are 21 with at least 2 children (and a third one on the way in a long line of kids to come). My grandmother was one of the original feminists, in the 1950's she got a job with the local authority, she was the financial director of the town where we were from. She was a single mother, had this fantastic career but my mum never saw her when she was growing up. But because of women like her, we now have a choice. I'm very proud of my grandmother, although I have never met her as she died just 6 months before I was born.

Answer 3

You are so priviledged, and you have no idea how much you are taking for granted all the opportunities and rights you have now as an American woman.

So you're stating that feminism is the reason for poor manners? that makes as much sense as stating that feminism is the reason for hurricanes-based on what facts?
I truly dislike illogical correlations like this, and this is a doozy.

So you're saying that losing good manners and the pressure to work (which is caused again by feminism not by economics?) is more important than the gains made for:

*the education of girls and women (even a couple of decades ago, not many women got a college degree),
*the right to a job that isn't based on gender alone (pre 60s/70s, if you were allowed to work),
*the right to a divorce (it could be very difficult for either gender to get a divorce not long ago),
*the recognition of and prosecution of date rape, marital rape, domestic violence, child abuse, incest, and stalking.

I grew up in the 60's, and NO life is not harder today, it was harder in the 60's and every decade before it for women and for many men!! It was only because of feminism that I and the women my age and your age have the choice of the occupations we have now-jobs were segregated by gender in the 60s: MEN ONLY jobs and WOMEN ONLY jobs. In my mothers generation, there was incredible pressure to marry, and very little support if any to get an education.

Not long ago I can remember when abortion wasn't legal (even if you were molested, raped or dying), and EFFECTIVE birth control was difficult to get, so if feminists weren't fighting to keep birth control legal through today, you could look forward to having kid after kid after kid, whether you had the emotional equipment (or the physical equipment) to handle it or not. Unless you were very wealthy, and even then, in most generations prior to 1970, you were most likely going to be barefoot and pregnant, non-stop.

Answer 4

The problem, if it is one, has been brought about by the politicians who took up this idea and ran with it taking no account of how it would effect the population. the same problem exists now between the ethnic groups in that you can not say anything without taking time to make sure that some PC idiot will not chase you all the way to court.

As many have said you want equality then you can have it. However if the female does not exude the feminist type look, which is man hating then there is usually no problem with door opening and the like. However because the law is involved as with everything else, distressed children for example can no longer be recovered to a safe place by a man as he is likely to be accused of being a paedophile by the mother or some other female when a non relationship is found to exist.

The problems of society today are caused by a few extremists in each group and taken to the nth degree by the politicians, lawyers and then the public. The country continues to go to hell in a hand cart and until some sense is returned to I can not for see any change. so you will have to continue to stand.

Answer 5

There's been a general loss of manners -- not just the "hold the door open" stuff -- not fair to blame feminism. In many ways, manners have improved, as women are considered fully human.

(Actually, on buses, people tend to give up seats to the less mobile -- older people, disabled, those carrying small children or other burdens, etc. This is a change, rather than a loss of manners.)

Much better to have the choice of working outside the home -- no question.

People who are mean to people who stay home with their kids are freaks and should be ignored.

I'd much rather vote than not.

There's MUCH less pressure on getting married and staying married now. Which means you don't have to take any man, if you're afraid of not doing better, or stay with one who's really horrible to you or the kids.

It's no longer acceptable to treat women as property or as decorative "things" of no brains.

Sorry, I can't agree. I think it's done tremendous good, and little, if any, harm.

Answer 6

I'd much rather have equal rights and equal opportunity, than some guy's "seat." I don't EXPECT a guy to give up his seat, so why would it be a problem if he doesn't? And I hold the door for everybody, EVERYONE should have manners, not just men. As for feeling like I "have" to have a career, I plan on staying home with my children when I have them, (at least for the first few years) because that is more important to me than my career...I don't feel "compelled" to do otherwise. But I am thankful that the Feminist Movement gave me the freedom to choose.

Answer 7

Its only made it as hard as it is for men who go out and work.

People need to stop resorting to femanism being a bad thing. I dont think women feel the need to work. They now have a choice whereas before that was unheard of. There is much less domestic violence and domestic violence which does exist now more often leads to prosicution. Women are taken more seriously nowadays. And at the end of the day, im strong enough to hold the door open for myself. i personally dont feel that has a thing to do with sex. if someone is walking behind me or carrying something, ill hold open the door no matter what age or sex.

Answer 8

I want equality for men and women.

that makes me a feminist.

I dont believe the situation is at that point still, rather than both sexes having the freedom to buck gender roles , niether have.

Women still have enormous pressure on them to be glamorous and are judged a lot by their appearance. Just look at people like Ann Widdecombe, razor sharp intelligent with integrity ( no i dont agree with her politics) but she gets judged on her appearance all the time! this is very wrong.

Women are still stereotyped as being caring, intiutive and better with children, men as been agressive, disrespectful and lazy with childcare.

Many women want it both ways - to be treated like a princess when they wish and then to be treated as equal at the same time. I dont believe this is fair on men and gives them conflicting standards to try and live up to.

Many women use feminism to get what they want and then slip back into the old female gender role when they have children.

Actually it has been proven that children are more likely to have behaviour problems when there is no male influence!!!

Lets have equal pay and equal rights for both men and women.

As a male childcare woker in the past i worekd in a female dominated field and experienced a lot of discrimantion, especially from parents.

Answer 9

O.k, this thread is absolutely disasterous. I'm stunned by some of the answers.

"DUE", your post was the most appalling to me. I have much to say on all this and will be posting my thoughts soon.

And by the way 'girls', could you tell me why you feel it's so imperative, so crucial and so vital that a man "give up his seat" or open the door for you??? What's with the cinderella/princess pretense?? Are you a china doll? An ornament? What? Have you not ever opened the door for a man before? Why is the courtesy only for you? Seriously, I would love to hear an intelligent explanation.

Again, I'll have more to say on this and will be pointing out some serious lies, pretenses and all around tall tales that you "anti's" preach to yourselves, men and probabaly to children. It'll be easy.

Answer 10

well said that women, and its great that a women said it. Feminism may have gone a little to far but its almost understandable seeing as women were treated badly in the past, in some countries. But wether the sexes deserve equal rights i am not sure as the sexes are different, surely there are occupations things that men are better at than women and vic versa?

Answer 11

You can't have it both ways. If you want equal pay for equal work then you must expect to be treated by men the same as they treat themselves, and I have yet to see a man stand up on a bus or train for another man. I think a woman is treated the way she allows herself to be treated. In my circle of friends, men do still stand up when a woman comes into the room and do treat us with respect. Even when I was young (I am a pensioner now) in the 1950's women had good careers and my mother (now in her 90's) worked because she wanted to and enjoyed getting out of the house.

I think that good manners, or the lack of them, is how a person is taught in the home and has nothing to do with feminism, just plain ignorance.