Is it inevitable in a promiscuous society that respect and value for women falls?

Question

Here is what I mean - historically, culturally, antrhopologically - there does seem to be a link between the chastity of the females and the subsequent value/protection/security etc offered to them. 19th century for example women were deemed to be frail/non-sexual/in need of protection etc.. In our society where depictions of women are often misogynistic/sex objects etc women are very much devalued..

I wonder how much of this is to do with evolution with the following dichotomy being ever present - males want females to put out but at the same time sub-consciously do an assessment as to how sure they can be of paternity.. therefore prostitutes are the most villified/least respected of all groups women. This also perhaps explains why in promiscuous societies the women have to compete to most sexually overt but with the least/lesser chance of security - even in marriage the condition being to remain as sexually decorative as possible.

Any thoughts from answers community re same?

19th century certainly has terrible societal underbelly - but I think the 2 still are linked with for example the Ripper murders being an extreme example - women putting out but murdered for it as lowest of low... Today also - any glance at internet pornography can see the women hating terms used - one hand wanting them to put out but on the other ridiculing them and abusing them for it... This must have a knock on effect where by normal women walking into a pub or anywhere are liable to be thought of in certain way or treated as such..

I guess I do not see the so called liberation of female sexuality as anything more than a female slavery in that women have to conform to male needs - look at porn, the woman's orgasm is neglible, the women are there to be used and discarded, derided. That is not liberating. The women who choose to do it have to conform to certain givens - must correct themselves, be passive, service the men etc - how can that be liberating?

They may choose to do it but given the back drop of overtly sexual patriarchal male socialistation then how can that be argued to be anything other than a societal problem?

The statistics speak for themselves, 1 in 2 women who are murdered are killed by partner of ex partner, 98% female armed force personel exposed to sexual harrasment, women most disadvantaged in work force, women still paid less than men, 98% rapists get off with it, 1in4 women victim of violence etc etc

Sorry - did not make myself clear - I do not think that women were in any way held in such great esteem in the past either that made it idyllic - all I am saying is that more chaste image led to greater security/protection in some instances.. Also as has been pointed out there were huge power disparities - hidden domestic abuse and other forms of oppression and repression.. women were very much second class citizens.. the point I am trying to make is that in MANY MANY ways we still are - the difference being it was more overtly so in the past compared to now where the oppression is more subtle and to such an extent that because the average woman does not consider herself to be inferior..cannot fathom that some males (and females!) still consider her to be so..

Answer 1

Yes. No. Maybe. Grief ... I'm really not sure. That's a very tricky question. If anyone bothered to read it all, could they translate it for me please?

Answer 2

This is a complex question. I would like to just comment on one aspect of it.
Forget for a moment how men's level of respect for women is affected. I believe that there is a very negative vicious cycle in the women concerning promiscuity and lack of self-respect. One only needs to look at so many of the questions here to see how these girls and women don't have a clue as to how they are being used and what their own lack of discernment does to them.

Sexual liberation for women sounds really great to some people, the idea that women should be totally free to get as much sexuality from life as they want. But there is a truth that no one wants to talk about. Of all the women that are promiscuous, what do you think is the percentage who really enjoy the sex vs. just doing it because it's the thing to do or because that seems to be the only way to get a man or that's what they believe they need to do in order to be a real woman. The magazines write about all the pleasure that women can now get; there are girls/women who convince themselves of it. The percentage of women who never or rarely have orgasms is approximately 25%. But who wants to be in that group? So they act as if they are not. Don't think that just because a girl/woman is putting out that that is a guarantee that she is really enjoying it. And don't expect to find people being honest about this, either.
And do you think that women who have enjoyed casual sex or sex in a confusing relationship don't sometimes or often come away feeling empty or used? Then they lose more self-esteem, they devalue themselves, and that plays out in how they continue to relate to men.

Answer 3

I think historically, women are pre-disposed to a lifetime of un-necessary disrespect.
Men are builders and destroyers. They have, for their own self-serving reasons, created "whores" out of women. And in the same breathe, they abuse and demize their exsistance for being the very thing that they crave.
It makes no sense and it's rather sad. It is a general truth. There are men who have the utmost respect for women, and women who have the utmost respect for themselves. However, throughout history, women have been de-valued and instinctively tend to de-value themselves. Same goes for men. They have been taught throughout history that women should be subservient and submissive. To serve a sexual purpose.
Women have forever been views as objects, and will probably continue to be viewed as such.
Just turn on your TV.
It's all over the place, and it is what our children are learning as well. That they will be more appeasing if they are shaking their half naked booty on TV with caked on make-up and "bedroom eyes". Sexually objectify themselves.

Women are disrespected by men if they are in a position of power and respect just as much as if they are a prostitute. I've never heard any man say anything good about the women that are making history (oprah, hilary clinton, rice, the female soldiers..to name a few). They reject those women as much as they reject a so called whore. Obviously intimidated by the "rise".
As a women, I feel like it's a lose-lose situation. No matter what we do, we are still just women and will always be valueless and inferior in the eyes of men.

I'm rambling..........sensitive subject.
I am a self-respecting women who get's disrespected in ever so sublte ways on a daily basis. Sexest jokes and such. It gets old.
The never ending battle of the sexes. It truely is a terrible thing.

Which I believe is the cause of the evolution of homosexuals.

These are my thoughts anyways.

Answer 4

Well even before the 19th century, women were looked at as incomplete or underdeveloped. That is why they were often put in monestaries - to be protected. General belief was that women were not fully developed individuals; if they were, they would have been men. Only recently have women been viewed as (more or less) equals. But the society and expectations of women today in 2007 are certainly NOT helping the respect factor. They are being viewed largely as posessions. The reason we lose respect for these individuals is because whenever someone is newly rich, or beautiful, or has any of the other "expectations of the american dream" fulfiulled, they feel like they have done enough and have succeded in life. And therefore there is no reason, in their mind, to try to EARN any respect. And unfortunately there is much more pressure on women to "look pretty" so many of them fall into this trap.

Answer 5

The value for women was never very high to begin with. When you add into this equation poor women, those who were virtually slaves, sexual concubines, etc. Not to mention the women who lived in the vast cities that had recently become centres of industrialization such as Leeds and Glasgow you had vast numbers of women who were virtually considered rubbish and discarded in the morning with the trash. Don't romanticize the past. What you hear about women was mostly about those who were affluent enough to be remembered. The ones that they don't speak of were the millions of Asian women who perished because of hunger at the turn of the century. The native Americans women who were given blankets infected with tuberculosis and smallpox to spread to any other heathen babies they might be carrying or have. Femicide has taken place for thousands of year and I have not even got into the two hundred thousand that were murdered during the witch hunts and burning times in Europe.

Answer 6

The two elements do not have a direct correlation. The 19th century had a seedy underbelly (with child/virgin prostitutes desired most because they were disease free) which does not accord with notions of respect and value. Similarly, promiscuity does not equate with disrespect. There is not a particular category of respect for women, at present formal respect and deference are dying out. This is not an entirely bad thing but it does have some undesireable consequences. The answer has to be no.

Answer 7

I think the answer to that question is probably no. I don't think it's as much a result of promiscuity as it is a lot of underlying things like shows and movies. My teacher was talking about the Saw movies earlier and how something like that desensitizes a human and "cheapens the quality of human life." I'm not so sure I'd go that far, but it certainly plays in to it. I think that women in particular probably lose respect because they don't adhere to particular roles; people respect anybody who is strong, but they particularly like to see things they view as "normal" because it's more comforting and less stressful to deal with. The value for women in the eyes of society falls, I think, when they don't live up to traditional ideals; the same could be said for men. Makes some sense if you think about it.

Answer 8

I actually disagree with you to a certain extent. Yes historically SOME women were thought of a chaste and requiring of protection by the male population, but there has always been a tiered system whereby other women were there for the mans amusement , and it was these women who were vilified.

In today's society it seems to be more accepted for women to be promiscuous, to take the lead and actually to enjoy sex. But the men would still prefer the ideal of a `virgin` for a wife.

It has and I think will always be a double standard opinion of the men in their view of women , one as a wife the other for fun.

But women control their own promiscuity now and revel in it. I do think it has destroyed the mans protective role to the level that men no longer feel like men and those that are unstable commit rapes now to prove themselves as men. Nothing to do with the sex, all to do with power .

Answer 9

" Is it inevitable in a promiscuous society that respect and value for women falls?" you ask. The answer is NO. Check out the case of Afghanistan, for example. Pretty sexually repressed, I would say: the centre of the universe for "burka-wear." Women teaching girls to read are murdered because some men are so threatened by this. Education=power. When real-life examples are used, your premise falls short in a HUGE way.
I will not go into the rest of your question at any length because your logic is deeply flawed. The 19th century vs the 21st century? You are oblivious to the role of the popular media in this - the mass media that did NOT EXIST in the 19th century. You are talking about two different planets, nevermind just 'apples and oranges'.
EDIT:
I keep thinking about how Sigmund Freud's view epitomises that held by "Victorian Man" about women: contrary to what you state women were DEVALUED as hysterical nutcases:

Studies on Hysteria (German: Studien über Hysterie) was a book published in 1895 by Sigmund Freud and Josef Breuer. It contained a number of Breuer and Freud's case studies of "hysterics". It included one of their most famous cases, Breuer's Anna O., which introduced the technique of psychoanalysis as a form of cure.

EDIT: MEET KAREN HORNEY
“Feminine” Psychology"
In her personality theory, Horney reformulated Freudian thought and presented a holistic, humanistic perspective that emphasized cultural and social influences, human growth, and the achievement of self-actualization. Though she was often considered to be too outspoken, Horney often has the distinction of being the only woman whose theory is included in personality textbooks…

As the first woman to present a paper on feminine psychology at an international meeting, Karen Horney pioneered and developed a feminine psychology that provided a new way of thinking about women. It has been said that the fourteen papers that she wrote between 1922 and 1937, which she compiled to form a volume titled "Feminine Psychology", could, by themselves, have earned Horney an important place in the history of psychology. She had a feeling that, as a woman, it was her task to work out a fuller understanding for specifically female trends and attitudes in life. In her "The Problem of Feminine Masochism", Horney proved that culture and society encouraged women to be dependent on men for love, prestige, wealth, care, and protection. She pointed out the overemphasis on pleasing men and the overvaluation of men and love.

Women, she found, were to be beautiful and charming, according to society. Also, women gained value only through their husbands children, and family. Her "The Distrust Between the Sexes" compared the husband-wife relationship to a parent-child relationship. In "The Problem of the Monogamous Ideal", Karen focused on marriage, and six of her other papers were based on marriage problems.

Answer 10

In the 19th century women weren't 'valued'; they were considered little more than male property and baby-making machines.

'Chastity' is a male imposition. The very thought of a woman as an independent sexual being terrified male society for centuries. Hence the premium on chastity and being 'feminine'.

Modern women do not need male validation and have a choice regarding their own sexual behaviour. By this I mean a woman's economic well being is no longer conditional on her being chaste. This seems like progress to me.

Regarding your comments. Prostitution and pornography are not examples of women 'putting out'. Both of these activities occur because of economic coercion and/or desperation. The availability of pornographic material does normalise certain negative behaviours towards women.

Answer 11

There is a good reason why in most respectable societies marriage is sacred and promiscuity is frowned upon. Besides health reasons, sexual purity creates stability between individuals and in the basic foundation of society, the family. A woman who wishes to find security in a safe home must keep herself from other men, else she brings problems into the home which affects the well being of her children. Allowing oneself to be a sexual object rather than a pillar of the home invites trouble. Promiscuity is demoralizing, weakening and killing our youth, just as adultery always destroys the family.