How is "I was born that way" a valid enough reason for a society to not only accept homosexuality, but to also

Question

integrate it into the society without change?

I have two gay brothers, well, I should say that I had two gay brothers. One of them died several years ago from AIDS, so I only have one living brother now. The views I'm going to express are those that they and some of their friends shared with me during discussions on the subject of homosexuality. They didn't necessarily agree that being gay was something that a person was born as, that some people chose it as a lifestyle, comparing it to a brunette changing their hair to that of blond. People can say "Why would anyone choose to be gay when gays tend to get such grief?", but people do that type of thing all of the time. Look at Emos and Goths for example, they choose to be that way despite the grief they get for it. But they did say that they felt some were born that way. Of the ones that are born that way, it was brought up that people are born all sorts of ways which deviate from "the norm", so if being born that way was a valid reason in itself for acceptance, then it should then apply all across the board. But it doesn't. Two examples are that of alcoholic and sex offender (and this is just two of many). Neither of these are accepted by society as being okay to just be that way. The people who are "born that way" are expected to change their behaviour. People can claim that being an alcoholic or sex offender is a danger to society, but then the same claim can be made about being gay. Homosexuality is anti-survival in that to be truly homosexual would mean that you would not propagate. Since being homosexual can be a lifestyle choice, then acceptance of it encourages others to adopt it, which can eventually lead to willful genocide. And while it might not be responsible for initiating certain STDs, it has helped to spread them.

You can say that I'm being prejudiced but 1) these are the views my gay brothers and some of their friends expressed, and 2) if the reasoning isn't valid, then you should be able to give valid reasoning against it. Not doing so or being able to do so simply validates the statements I have presented. Also, if you're going to point out that there are things which you consider to be wrong that society currently accepts and allows, then that argument doesn't work in your favour, because if you feel that they are wrong, then you don't feel that there is valid reason for them to be accepted and allowed.

So, to get to the question, how is "I was born that way" a valid enough reason for a society to not only accept homosexuality, but to also integrate it into the society without change?

If the argument is so full of flaws, Da Ben Dan, then you should be able to give one valid argument against them. That doesn't take much time to argue just one.

Also, these aren't prejudical statements being made. They are lines of reasoning concerning certain facts. I'm not drawing conclusions here, I am asking a question concerning this line of reasoning. Never do I state that I believe being homosexual is wrong or that nobody is born homosexual. If that is what you're getting out of this, then you're the ones who are reading it with prejudical eyes.

Also, the reasoning they used for homosexuality being a choice sometimes were two-fold.

The first is that people don't always know their own mind and will choose to do certain things until they do. Just as a person who is actually gay can be persuaded to live a life of heterosexuality until they realize they aren't heterosexual, so can someone who is heterosexual be confused and be persuaded to lead a homosexual existence until realization comes about.

The second is that some people will do all sorts of things to be fashionable or trendy, even if it goes against their grain, or sometimes because it does. So they adopt a homosexual lifestyle for this reason alone.

I don't blame the gay community for my brother's death and never have. He contracted AIDS because he had unprotected sex while having unsafe sex. He chose to do this, so no one is to blame. And if I were to assign any blame or responsibility outside of himself, then it would go to me first, since I always had unprotected sex (but never unsafe sex) and he knew it, so it could be said that he took my example.

BTW Thurston Howell III, I didn't choose child molester as an example. I choose sex offender. Not all sex offenders are child molesters. That you equate the two shows prejudice on your part, while showing me that instead of reading what I actually wrote that you chose to edit it in your mind to come out to saying what you wanted it to say.

First, I never initiated any of these discussions concerning this topic with my brothers or their friends, they always brought it up around me. Second, the point that was always made about STDs was that, while heterosexual sex did spread them, gay sex added to that spreading. It was compared to things like littering, that it's bad to have litter spread along the side of the road, but just because it's there doesn't mean you should add to it or that adding more doesn't make it worse. Third, the point about not propagating took into account that technology could not always nor should it be depended on to assist with this, so if the mindset came to be that a gay lifestyle way to live by a great amount of people and technology didn't exist to help out, then the gene pool would become small and the desire to procreate might deminish to analarming level.

Answer 1

First of all, you won't get any major arguments out of me. The thing is, I never say "I was born that way". Do I think some people were and some might not have been? Sure. All I can ever really relate to people though is MY experience, because that's all I can be sure of. More importantly, I think that whether or not someone was "born that way" is completely irrelevant. What I think is that I have yet to hear ANY logical reason (including yours, which I'll get to) for there to be any negative consequences of being gay even if it were a conscious CHOICE. (That said, there's also a MAJOR false dichotomy progogated on both sides that either it's genetic ie "born that way", or else it's a choice. Those aren't the only two ways things happen).

You're being silly is as easy as it gets. For starters, look around you. We're in a major OVERPOPULATION crisis worldwide. Not even getting into the concept that homosexuality just might serve some function (as it has been observed in hundreds of other species so far: and still counting), there's still the fact that we are in absolutely no danger of dying out. Technically speaking, population growth might be more steady if we did start slimming things down a little (assuming that you did start having large numbers of people making a conscious choice to be exclusively homosexual: I will tell you that in my experience I haven't met one, but I don't discount the idea that it might happen). It's the difference between a J-curve population growth, which then leads to a higher population than the resources can sustain (whereas people are dying horrible deaths NOW, when we technically DO have enough resources to go around), and then the population dies out again before evening out. If we slowly start slowing down the population growth and hopefully even out to a plateu, then there's a gentle s curve where the population never goes ABOVE what can be sustained. Also...I think you know full well you're being ridiculous that there would be enough people flocking to CHOOSE to be gay that it would have any substantial impact on the population. As for STD's, if you want to get right down to it heterosexual sex "has helped to spread them" too: doesn't mean we outlaw all non-procreative sex. So, yes, I think that you're coming from a prejudiced perspective (and no, just because your gay brother says it doesn't make it true, nor does it make it non-heterosexist. he's prone to it at LEAST as much as you are).


THe fact of that matter is, if you take a REALISTIC look at the facts, the statistics, and logical conclusions therefrom, there's no reason for anyone to have a problem with gay people. It comes down to a homophobic society conditioning people to think there's something wrong with it (and "facts" are made to back that up instead of vice-versa), or people who feel that their religious views should be imposed upon all their fellow Americans.

Answer 2

I want to start by telling you how sorry I am for the loss of your brother. It's clear that you're still carrying around a lot of pain that came from his death. I'm sure if your brother was alive he'd tell you that he'd like for gays to have equal rights.

I think it's unfair to say that gay people harm society in any way. The world is in a state of overpopulation right now. If the entire world population was heterosexual (instead of having 10 percent or so of us be gay), the planet would have so many people we'd use up all the resources the world has. Obviously if every person on earth was gay, it would mean the end of the world, but that's not the case. Only about 10 percent of people are born gay, and we don't normally have babies and spread our genes around.

Under your argument, being born blind, deaf, mentally handicapped, physically handicapped, diabetic, etc. would certainly be considered in the worst interest of mankind. Should we also keep these people from having equal rights to discourage them from living their lives?

I've read scientific theories that suggest the "gay gene" is there to keep overpopulation from becoming a problem. As the population grows, so does the amount of homosexuals you see. I honestly believe there is a natural reason why homosexuals are needed in the world. We shouldn't act as if they are a plague on society.

Please don't blame the entire gay community for your brother's death. Gay people have unfairly been blamed for HIV's spread, but we're not the reason why so many straight people have it today. Straight people have done just as fine a job spreading these STDs as we have.

God bless you.

Answer 3

Uh, yeah, it is natural. Every species of animal on the entire planet has "gay" or "lesbian" examples. Not to mention that if you actually *read* the Bible, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because the people there were destroyed for not showing hospitality to strangers. The original versions of the Bible say nothing about homosexual relationships, but talk about pedophilia. And yes, I was born bisexual, I don't care what you think. The God that I was raised to believe in is loving and forgiving, and doesn't "hate" anyone. Maybe you should actually study biology and theology before you start spewing things you don't know anything about. Oh, and also, the Bible says that everyone is born a sinner, so, yes a baby can sin. And the American Psychological Association stopped considering homosexuality a disorder back in the 70's, and probably every single reputable clinician will tell you that sexual orientation is about personal chemistry and make-up, and that no amount of "help" can change that.

Answer 4

Very simply, since you are straight, do you think if 95% of people were gay, then you would go gay? It doesn't work that way. Your "anti-survival" argument is b.s. There are 6 billion people on the planet. Only a small percentage are gay.
Society accepts people drinking, some people become alcoholic by drinking too much. And if they go to AA and quit their problem drinking, they are accepted. I've never heard any bible thumpers attach so much venom to the alcoholic the way they attack gays.
I very much doubt your gay brothers believe or believed in one case that society shouldn't accept them for who they are.
If its not hurting you, why do you care? What is wrong with society changing if the change is towards openeness and acceptance?
Your arguments sound like the arguments bigots use to justify their racism.
An EMO or a GOTH doesn't spend a lifetime dealing with fighting against an inner urge to go goth and then finally "come out" as emo or goth, they are just choosing a style, it isn't a part of their innermost being.
Why did you choose child molester as one of your examples, its not accepted because it causes horrible consequences. Where is the evidence a child molester is born that way? They get that way by being abused and mentally ill. Same sex encounters between consenting adults don't hurt anybody that way.

Answer 5

First of all, the inability of Yahoo Answers folks to repudiate your reasoning, does not validate your reasoning -- they might know how, or they might not care. Even if they can't give sound reasons against, it, you could still be wrong.

And you are wrong. You aren't presented well-reasoned ideas. You claim that your gay brother had an opinion --so what? A lot of people from abused classes or groups famously 'internilize the hatred' and have self-sabotaging views.

There is evidence which suggests that a genetic proclivity to be gay or straight exists. The presence of gays in every human population, throughout the known world, is constant.

But you want to believe that people choose to be gay -- if so, when did you consciously choose to be straight?

Chances are you never even thought about, unless you are also mildly bisexual, which might explain why you spend so much time arguing with gay people. Really now, don't you wish you had a real life?

Answer 6

Good post. My ex wife told me that embracing a gay lifestyle after 10 years of marriage and two kids was her choice. My stepdaughter decided to accept the straight lifestyle after 6 years of being a lesbian. She again told me that she made these choices in her life.

Are smokers born to smoke? Why would anyone take up a habit as disgusting as that if they had a choice? But yet smokers are the most discriminated people in this country. Laws are being passed to prevent you from having a smoke in your own bedroom.

Are overweight people born that way? Yet we ban foods, raise taxes on fast foods all in the name of making people live a way we want them to live.

Why should homosexuals think that they are the only ones discriminated against?

But yet, many people take responsibility for their actions and quit smoking. Others diet to control their basic impulses, Can gays do the same, or is it that they need an excuse to justify their actions?

Answer 7

I agree with you completely. I have been trying as hard as I can to get people to stop using the possible genetic basis for homosexuality as a justification of such. To me, it seems to be saying "Look, I'm so sorry I was born this awful, horrible, disgusting way, but I was, and I wish I hadn't been, just it's just so terrible, but since I didn't choose it, please don't punish me, even though if I had chosen it, you'd be completely right because homosexuality is so very wrong.". And that is NOT what we want to be saying!

Instead of using such an argument, we should be saying "Yes, I do feel that I was born that way, and science may prove that I was, but even if I wasn't, that wouldn't change a thing, because homosexuality, like any other sexual orientation, is a morally neutral thing.".

Like you say, the argument that innateness equals moral goodness is utter crud; to see whether something is right or wrong we need to look at how it affects the person doing it and others around him/her; if it creates happiness in the person and harms nobody else, I fail to see how it is immoral. But then again, that's according to my moral compass.

I agree with you also that the "Why would anyone choose this?" argument is bunk; people choose to do all sorts of things that get them exiled from society, ridiculed, looked down on, and so on. But that doesn't mean that homosexuality is a choice; I don't think anyone can consciously change their sexuality, mostly because it's never happened. People can suppress, they can deny, they can choose not to act on their desires, but your desires are pretty much fixed, and for every straight person who says that gay is a choice, I offer them the challenge to go and have wonderful, fulfilling sex with the same gender; if they can do that, I concede that they are right. However, I bet that's not going to happen.

Lastly, the one thing I disagree with you on is that homosexuality is the downfall of our society. People continuously say that, but I have to point out that homosexuality is in a very small percentage of the population. Does anyone stop to think that such is nature's failsafe to ensure our popluation keeps going? Moreover, we live in an amazing day and age where gay men and lesbians CAN procreate, thanks to technology like sperm donation, in-vitro fertilization, and surrogate motherhood. Believe me, the fate of our world is not in any trouble.

Hope that helps things make sense. I don't believe you're prejudiced, and I appreciate your logical, respectful questions.

Answer 8

Gays aren't dangerous, k.
For homosexuality to kill off the human race, we'd ALL have to be gay, and that just isn't going to happen.
Now stop choosing to be a jerk and living the jerk lifestyle and learn to accept people.

Answer 9

It's a cop out and a public relations tactic employed by Gay/Lesbian groups to make them appear to be abnormal by God's will. This way they can repel the attacks by normal people by saying "Hey your God made me gay so blame him, not me."
Being gay for the most part is a choice. In many cases it's simply the ultimate act of rebellion against societal norms ie...mommy & daddy. So yes you got it right. Now be prepared for all the gays on Yahoo to tell you how homophobic you are and to complain to
their gay Yahoo censors, who will ban you.

See... don't feel sorry for them, they're doing just fine. ;-)

Answer 10

Because it is. We don't have to defend ourselves to anyone or "justify" why we are the way we are. What gives you the right to demand that we do? And despite having two gay brothers, you still don't get it. Some people are apparently born not to understand. That's the way it goes.