South Africa as violent as Bagdad??

Question

Last night on newsnight they did a piece with John Simpson the well known reporter that use to live in South Africa.
The official figures given are 50 murders a day and 250 seriously injured by violent crime. Most S.Africans call their President an idiot for not admitting to the violence. (there are several petitions going around at present,stating just that.) Yet when you bring this up, you will find the majority will stand by him and say that there is violence everywhere. Well I do not have burglar bars and there has never been a murder in Portchester UK where I live. I have never even met someone that knows someone that has been murdered. There are now over 1 million S Africans living here.
I have not met a lot of them but those that I have blame violence (to a man) for being here.

Edit: Thank you lync for pointing out that South Africa is a Country on the southern tip of Africa. The comparison in Newsnight was with Johannesburg and Bagdad.
I South Africa there are 22000 murders a year and 56000 rapes,as you can see there is no comparison with UK.
By the way I know that Washigton and Moscow are also UP THERE.
South Africa is second on the list the next African country is Zimbabwe at 16 and Zambia at 18
See:http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
By the way fivetoze My daughter lives in Cape Town and has had 2 boyfriends murdered 4 close neighbours and several friends. A friend of mine that now lives here. has been shot twice been hijacked and watched two people murdered whilst out with his children who still cannot forget it. I lived there for 30 years and all I can say
is that you cannot compare your worst slum with their poshest suburb for murders. The proof is in the site above.

Edit: Thank you lync for pointing out that South Africa is a Country on the southern tip of Africa. The comparison in Newsnight was with Johannesburg and Bagdad.
I South Africa there are 22000 murders a year and 56000 rapes,as you can see there is no comparison with UK.
By the way I know that Washigton and Moscow are also UP THERE.
South Africa is second on the list the next African country is Zimbabwe at 16 and Zambia at 18
See:http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
By the way fivetoze My daughter lives in Cape Town and has had 2 boyfriends murdered 4 close neighbours and several friends. A friend of mine that now lives here. has been shot twice been hijacked and watched two people murdered whilst out with his children who still cannot forget it. I lived there for 30 years and all I can say
is that you cannot compare your worst slum with their poshest suburb for murders. The proof is in the site above.

Answer 1

Yes, but there is crime wherever you go!

No, I´m sorry, I can´t do it, I just can´t make that statement anymore!!

I tried before, I left S.A for a year to work overseas and went back for a year, to give it another chance. Maybe I was being too critical of my homeland, was it really that bad? Time has a way of dulling the memories.
Before we left S.A. the first time my wifes` family came down for our wedding in 2001.
My now sister-in-law, who was last in S.A. about 8 years before, summed it up very well, and forgive me if you´ve heard this before, she said " if you throw a frog in boiling water it will jump out immediately, however if you place a frog in room temperature water and slowly increase the temperaure to boiling point the frog will boil to death!".
At the time that struck me as quite a harsh thing to say, but I could understand her point of view, as our appartment had been burgalled 2 months before and our car had been stolen a month before, and since their arrival in Cape Town thay had been involved in a road rage incident.

We returned to S.A., after our year of living and working in Spain and Italy, where we had lived a relative worry free period (other than the usual money problems etc.) , and then the boiling frog theory really hit home.

I did for the first few months try to adopt the common mindset - South Africa is the greatest country in the world, sure we have crime but so does everybody else - but I couldn´t do the psyching-up anymore, I couldn´t ignore reality.

Our first night back in Cape Town our car along with 4 others was broken into. The car was stolen 2 months later.
A good friend was murdered in his restaurant, shot in the head for R200. In the same week my best man was mugged and had his appartment burgaled while he was asleep (luckily he sleeps like the dead - no pun inteneded).
A friend of my wife was raped outside her house while her sister had to watch with a knife against her throat.
etc. etc.

The thing about crime in S.A. is it`s so prolific. In other countries it´always happens to someone on T.V. or a friend of a friend, but in S.A. it´s happening to family and friends.
I can only think that, as Alf has stated in his response, the crime statistics (which are already sickening) are not a true reflection of the actual crime situation and fall way short of the reality.

South Africa is not a healthy environment (to put it mildly), the problem is that for many reasons one starts to accept the gradual (and not so gradual) degradation of a society.
Yes, crime is less in some of the smaller places in S.A. but there is no escape.
I remember going to Plettenberg Bay and Knysna 15 years ago for holidays.
A couple of years back the Capetonians and Valies started moving there to escape the crime of the bigger cities.
I went to Plett and Knysna 3 years back and was witness to the fact that the crime had followed the people there.


To all the South Africans still living in S.A., among which include most of my family and lots of friends, I understand your reasons for being there just as you understand mine for not.
What I don´t understand is when I hear people saying "there is not a crime problem", or "there is crime everywhere in the world", this makes a mockery of all the South Africans that have left because their wife/husband/parent/child was mugged, raped, shot, killed etc. and also makes a mockery of the South Africans living in S.A. trying their best to find ways to tackle the crime problem.

To all South Africans living outside of S.A. I hope you are finding peace and happiness and adapting to your new life.

To all South Africans thinking of leaving and are able to, there is life after South Africa. The first year or two are damn tough trying to adapt to a new system and culture (and for me, a new languge too) but the rewards make it worthwhile.

To Kuschke, I feel for you, my folks are in the same position.

Anyway, I hope this long winded answer shares a little more clarity, it may not be what some people want to hear, but it´s from the heart.

Wat ek sou nou gee vir n` lekker braaivleis op die strand, met die brandewyn en coke en die bier wat sonder end vloei, die goeie geselskap en die musiek wat ons op die kar radio gespeel het.

Totsiens almal.

Answer 2

It is really violent, they are not going through a war either like Baghdad is. The murder rate in Washington DC is pretty high too. It had 262 murders in a year with a population of 600,000. The US is supposed to be a civilized country but still has a huge problem with violence. Where as S Africa is in a very violent and poor continent. I wonder what the murder rate there is compared to other African countries. May be because it's the best out of a bad bunch they play it down a bit. In 2005/06 the murder rate in the UK was 756 and we have 52 million people here, Washington is only just over 1/2 million.

By the way to the post above me, he said South Africa, which is a country.

My God! 22,000 murders in one year, that is dreadful. It makes me thankful that I live in such a peaceful country, people complain about the government but we have one of the best standards of living in the world! The South African government should be ashamed, I really thought Zimbabwe would be worse.

Answer 3

I won't go into a debate comparing the different crime rates in different countries. All I know is that I left SA 5 years ago and I am currently very happy in South East England. I'm never going to feel exactly safe as I grew up in SA and was taught to always look over my shoulder and keep an eye out for danger. However, I do feel much safer here.

I lived in a very good neigbourhood in SA and one of our neigbours were robbed in their house at gunpoint one afternoon. A few streets away an old lady was brutally murdered for a string of pearls. A gang of robbers were actually chasing my mum's friend and her small children into her garage, a few doors down the street, as she was trying to park her car and she just closed the electric door in the nick of time. These things might not sound extremely bad to some, but I can tell you it was enough to give me sleepless nights.
Add that to the rape count and all the murders that go unsolved, along with a corrupt government, a government that would happily let its people starve and live in townships without heating or electricity, while it lines the pockets of its politicians. There is no point in blaming any colour skin for what is happening. Blame the politicians and the idiot president.

Answer 4

I am a South African living outside of my country, so sometimes it is better to view things from a distance than close up. Other countries do have problems and it is not a cop-out to say so. Have a look at some stats in Colombia, Brazil and Argentina. It is a bit offensive to say that all South Africans are barbarous by nature. It is like saying that all men are potential rapists, all women are victims and all poor people steal, mug and rape. I was visiting family in January of this year and the stadium in Cape Town is almost finished and nobody can say that Zuma is a worse president than Mbeki, who was awful. Japs share a common language and culture and japan is small in comparison to S. Africa, which has at least 40 languages, 11 of them official languages. Diversity of culture is huge and then you have a diverse range of settlers, immigrants and former slaves living there, which adds a bit of spice to the mixture. I am sure that the games will be fine - tourists know what to expect - South Africa has a reputation and tourists are more well-informed than S. Africans like to think.

Answer 5

Bagdad is at War....
South Africa is out of Control...
Here is some Stats that were given to Mbeki today by the
GENERAL SECRETARY: SOLIDARITY...

The 18 528 murders, 54 926 rapes and the 119 726 instances of violent crime during 2006 are unacceptable to me and to millions of other South Africans. Crime is doing tremendous damage to our country. It erodes business confidence and destroys any hopes of tackling the many other problems, like poverty and unemployment, that face our country.

Answer 6

Yes, you are right. Crime is rife here in SA. For those of us who do not have a choice to leave the country, we have to do what we can to protect ourselves. Perhaps the reaosn I still live in the furthest corner of SA where it is still okay to have an open door and car in the day or sit outside on the lawn over a weekend without having to worry about a buller flying past you any minute. Crime as bad as Baghdad - in another sense most certainly yes. We also have war - war against those who do not see or do not want to see that our crime figures are killing the welfare of our country in so many ways. Our tourist trade for example. Our professionals leaving the country leaving us to be the worse off. Very sad. I am 53 years old and cry for every new baby born as there will not be a sunny South Africa left for them when they grow up - IF they grow up. People call the President an idiot and then vote for him again - you are so bloody right!!!!!!!!! How do we fight THAT?? I feel a pang of jealousy with your free way of living, if not for the weather there..... So, enjoy and do not come back please. There is nothing to come back for, believe me!!!!!!!!

Answer 7

turniton5 - You took the words right out of my mouth! It makes me so sad that my family has to live in a place like that, that I barely see them, even though I love them and miss them dearly. A part of me will always miss my country, my people, my language, and all those things that are just so unique South African. But the way things are, I cant think about taking my little boy back there now.

And the answer about what is going to happen when Nelson Mandela dies - it scares the hell out of me. What about my family? I wish there was something we could do to get our beautiful country back into shape.

Answer 8

I am from SA and there is crime and violance YES, and i have heard of shocking stories i would never stay in a place with no burgalar bars i might as well buy a coffin!!!! BUT it is one of the most beautiful countries and different areas are safer than others. and the people are some of the frienliest in the world...i never want to move because of that!!!

Answer 9

In Iraq in 2006 there were 16500 Iraqui lives lost and 3500 Americans lost their lives. That compares with South Africa excepting that Iraq is a War Zone. Only Colombia has a general murder rate higher than South Africa but South Africa is way ahead of the pack when it comes to the involvement of guns.
Within South Africa there are still the denialists and some have answered you. Their tactic is to deny the violent crime rates and point fingers at any and every other Country. For example the statement that the Eastern Cape is safe is in complete contrast with the Government manipulated news media that has seen Headlines such as " Port Elizabeth under siege by criminals." Any comparison of statistics is invalid for a very simple reason - South African statistics are manipulated by the ANC and Police in South Africa refuse to take complaints unless there is some sort of violence involved e.g. In 2004 the ANC reported just over 19,000 murders, the South African Medical Association reported just over 32,000 and Interpol reported 48,000 adding that murder figures were grossly understated. Also in the same year the ANC reported 55,000 rapes but Rape Crisis in SA reported that rape statistics were up to 15 times under reported.So who and what do you believe? A major factor is Tourism and like most 3rd World Countries Tourism is a prime income earner for South Africa. The various Tourist Boards therefore go to any immoral length to protect their income and violent crime is their biggest threat.Money is their God and there have been numerous attacks on foreign Tourists over the Christmas period to which they have gone to extraordinary lengths to sweep under the carpet.
As far as the ANC and Mbeki are concerned a little research beyond the trendy politically correct liberal version of history will reveal that Mandela is a Soviet trained terrorist who has never renounced violence. Mbeki is also a Communist as are many within his Government. These people align themselves with some of the worst despots and inhuman regimes on the Planet e.g. Russia,China,Iran,Cuba,Zimbabwe etc. It is also widely believed in South Africa that the ANC follows its original Policy of Uhuru or "Night of the Long Knives" as Siener Van Rensburg called it. The idea is that as soon as Mandela dies then within a week of his burial Johannesburg will be sealed off and the genocide of Whites will commence. This has been given credence by various statements from ANC Politicians with " When Mandela dies we will kill you Whites like flies" being the most infamous.South Africa is a crime economy whose only industry worthy of mention is Tourism and it is fast headed down the tubes.I too live in the UK and do as much as I can to warn anyone contemplating a visit there not to go. We are now engaging the various supporters clubs in the UK with a view to discouraging them to travel to South Africa for 2010 World Cup ( if it ever happens there).

Answer 10

Yes I know quite a few people who have left SA because of fear of violence. Aids is an even a bigger problem. The place is a mess and the Worlds in denial.