Mollies: Deflated Swim Bladder (New Outbreak) - Help!?

Question

Okay - I don't have my water parameters, because I'm at work (so you don't have to ask for them) - but they are *fine*. I test them weekly and ammonia, pH, nitrates, nitrites, etc. are all on par. I do 20-25% weekly water changes, keep my Mollies in brackish water and am basically someone who truly tries to be the best fish keeper possible (even though I definitely have made my mistakes in the past).

History:

I lost my entire tank of adult Mollies when I converted my 2 10G tanks into 1 29G tank. Apparently the way I converted the tanks freaked/stressed my fish out and then came down with a reverse or deflated swim bladder problem (all of them, surprisingly enough) and within a month, they began to be unable to swim (one soon after another).

They would keep to the bottom, just flapping their side fins and their entire underbody would be almost "paralyzed". They would stop feeding (not able to swim to the surface and not even able to dig for falling food, until they ended up passing away. The diagnosis: Deflated/Reverse Swim Bladder Disease. (This is a "probable" diagnosis I got from a woman who is a zookeeper specializing in aquatics that happened to be at the LFS when I was there trying to explain the situation to get a diagnosis to the manager of the fish department. She works for the LFS company, so she became interested in my story and after talking to me for quite some time, determined that is what she thought the problem was.)

Current Tank:

Anyways --- I began to restock my tank with 2M Mollies - I thought 1 was F, sheesh - you'd think I could genderize them by now, but it is a very "fancy tail" Molly and I didn't look carefully enough to see it had a gonopodium "hidden" in its other "fancy fins". I bought them last Monday. I thought the two of them were doing fine, so yesterday I added in 2F Dalmatian Mollies. Water tests are still coming back perfectly fine as of this morning.

Besides the 2 Cream Mollies I added last Monday, I already had 4 juveniles in the 29G from previous Molly pregnancies (their mothers having passed away in the death tank episode mentioned above). I also had 7 "baby" Mollies (< 3 months old). All of these babies/juveniles and the 1 "fancy fin" M Molly are doing great. The Dalmatians are also "adjusting". They were sort of hiding earlier and the "fancy fin" Molly decided to "get to know them" (If you know what I mean, that's how I realized - duh, he's a he and not a she.)

The Sick Molly:

The 1M Creamsicle Molly that I bought last Monday is now showing symptoms of the "deflated swim bladder" problem that my other Mollies died of. He is staying at the bottom of the tank (hiding under the bubbler wand). This morning when I fed everyone, they were busy eating and he didn't move. When I came back 15 minutes later, he was trying to surface and he was severely struggling. His two side fins were working, but his tail fin and underbody were not appearing to be functioning. He fell back down and sort of bopped on the rocks. When I came back another 5-10 minutes later, he was back laying on the rocks under the bubbler.

What on earth can be done??? Has *anyone* had this problem? He has NO physical signs of parasites, Ich/Velvet, Dropsy/bloat or any other fish diseases. If I don't do something today, I feel he is going to die for sure. I will probably end up taking him back to the LFS to see if they can "save him" because I don't think this deflated/reverse swim bladder can be "fixed", where the other swim bladder disease can be fixed sometimes.

I am going to be posting this on as many fish forums as I can find, so please don't think I am "spamming". I just really would like to find someone else who has had this "deflated swim bladder problem" in their Mollies or other fish.

Please post here or even email me at [e-mail] -- I will be checking periodically from work all day to see if I can get some suggestions/advice.

Answer 1

I know you don't have the exact water parameters now, but they are very important when trying to determine a cause of death or illness because for "fine" can mean two different things for two different people. For example, you say ammonia and nitrites are "fine" but you don't have the exact numbers - this leads me to believe that your ammonia and nitrites are somewhere above 0. Not necessarily super high, but I would think that if they'd been at zero for the several weeks, you'd remember it was 0. Nitrites and ammonia in ANY amount are toxic - so if they are indeed over 0, be sure to increase the frequency of water changes.

As for the diagnosis of Deflated/Reverse Swim Bladder Disease... Well, I don't know where this woman got her information, but this is the first I hear of Deflated/Reverse Swim Bladder Disease. I even did some research before posting to be sure I wasn't out of my mind. Not to say that it doesn't somehow exist, but frankly, if I've never heard of it and neither has the entire online population of aquarium hobbiests, then I'd be very interested in knowing where she got her diagnosis - and if you are able to find a source of information for this illness, please do let me know.

Moreover, these fish doesn't sound like they have specific syndromes that could point to any illness in particular. Apparent paralysis and lethargy could be anything, but it does not sound like anything related to the swim bladder. The swim bladder controls the fish's ability to rise / sink. If they lose this ability, they do not become paralysed, they simply float or sink and struggle to swim but not be able to. It seems like saying "reverse swim bladder" would be like saying "reverse cancer," if you know what I mean. If your fish are affected by swim bladder, it would just be swim bladder.

Anyway, if they are truly paralysed, the first thing that comes to my mind is parasite.
Or, possibly... electrocution? Did you use the same heater, and is it possible it is faulty? Electrocuted fish have a tendency to sink and seem paralyzed from the waist down.

Try removing the heater or getting a new one.

As for the swim bladder itself, it's usually a bacterial infection and yes, usually untreatable because by the time the fish manifest symptoms of the disease, it is too late to correct it. However, you can try to treat with an antibacterial med like melafix.

If your water parameters truly are perfect (0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, nitrates under 30ppm, pH between 6 and 10, temp between 75 and 78F), you might want to look into getting your fish at a different place. Some stores just carry poor stock, rejects, more or less, and don't take good care of their fish. By the time the buyer gets the fish, they're halfway dead.

Lastly, you could consider the possibility of some sort of toxin or chemical in the tank. Either from the air (ie aerosol can, flea powder, cleaning products sprayed etc) or from the tank itself. Try moving some of the to a hospital tank in another room, see if that helps.


Edit: Sorry 8, doesn't sound like pH shock to me. pH can and will shock fish, but it would kill them within the first couple days, not over a week later.

Answer 2

You cant add any kind of salt with the algae in the tank stop feeding all your fish for 3 days then feed peas your fish wont starve if your still feeding the fish the swim bladder wont right its self just do not feed now for 3 days and then add shelled cooked peas for 3 days and see what happens

Answer 3

This "zookeeper specializing in aquatics" obviously didn't reccommend any way to help your fish, eh?

It sounds to me like your pH is quite a bit different that what the mollies were used to living in before you brought them home. I am not an "expert" specializing in aquatics, but that sounds like "pH shock" to me.

Have the store test your tank water (they will do it for free) and then test their water to see how far off they are. A difference of only .5 will cause serious problems and even death. You may have to take up to 2-3 hours to acclimate "new" fish to your tank instead of the store reccommended 20-30 minutes.

Answer 4

Possiable Problems:

Columnaris, Cotton-Wool, Cotton-Mouth, Flexibacter, Mouth Fungus

Often mistaken for a fungal infection because of its mold-like lesions, Columnaris is a common bacterial infection in cultured fish, particularly livebearing fish and catfish. Its name is derived from columnar shaped bacteria, which are present in virtually all aquarium environments.
The bacteria are most likely to infect fish that have been stressed by such conditions as poor water quality, inadequate diet, or handling and shipping. Columnaris can enter the fish through the gills, mouth, or via small wounds on the skin. The disease is highly contagious and may be spread through contaminated nets, specimen containers, and even food.

Columnaris can be external or internal and may follow a chronic or acute course. Lesions in chronic cases progress slowly, taking many days before culminating in fish death. In acute cases the lesions spread quickly, often wiping out entire populations of fish within hours. High water temperatures accelerate the progression of the disease; however lowering the water temp will not affect the outcome of the disease.
Symptoms:
White spots on mouth, edges of scales, and fins

Cottony growth that eats away at the mouth

Fins disintegrate beginning at the edges

'Saddleback' lesion near the dorsal fin

Fungus often invades the affected skin

Rapid gilling in cases where gills are infected
Most Columnaris infections are external, and present first as white or grayish white spots on the head, and around the fins or gills. The lesions may first be seen only as a paler area that lacks the normal shiny appearance. As the lesion progresses it may become yellowish or brownish in color and the area around it may be tinged red.

Lesions on the back often extend down the sides, giving the appearance of a saddle. On the mouth the lesions may look moldy or cottony, and the mouth will become eaten away. Fins will erode and have a frayed appearance as the infection progresses. The gills filaments will disintegrate as the bacteria invade them, and the fish will begin breathing rapidly due to lack of oxygen. Less commonly, the infection will be internal, and display no external symptoms.
Treatment:
Change water

Vacuum gravel

Add aquarium salt

Treat with copper sulfate or antibiotic

Discontinue carbon filtration during treatment

External infections should be treated with antibiotics or chemicals in the water. Copper sulfate, Acriflavine, Furan, and Terramycin may all be used externally to treat Columnaris. Terramycin has proven to be quite effective both as a bath, and when used to treat foods for internal infections. Salt may be added to the water to enhance gill function. Livebearers in particular will benefit from the addition of salt, however use caution when treating catfish, as many are sensitive to salt.
Prevention:
Quarantine new fish for two weeks

Maintain high water quality

Provide fish with a nutritionally balanced diet

Medicate fish prophylactically before moving them

Disinfect nets and other equipment before using

Because the bacteria thrive on organic wastes, it can be controlled by regular water changes and vacuuming of the gravel. Proper diet and maintaining good water quality in general will keep the fish from being stressed and therefore susceptible to infection. To avoid spreading the bacterium, nets, specimen containers, and other aquarium equipment should be disinfected before each use. Small quantities of aquarium salt can be used to prevent disease in livebearer aquariums. When fish are being shipped or moved, they may be treated prophylactically with antibiotics or by feeding them medicated food.

Also, where did you buy your fish? If you bought them at Walmart, stop buying your fish there. Chances are it isn't something you are doing it is something they are doing. (I've never had one live longer than a month or so. Most dies within 2-3 days.)

Remember as a general rule, the smaller fish such as tetras, mollies, guppies, neons, swordtails, will live no more than 3 years. Some of the larger fish such as cichlids, angels, goldfish, can live 5 years or more. We have no way to know how old a fish is unless we have seen it hatch or born in our tank.

Try feeding your fish peas. Yep peas help with blatter and digestive problems. Don't worry, even if they do not have a problem, they can and will eat the peas.

Also, what you are describing doesn't really sound like a swim blatter problem.
It most often presents as a fish which floats at the surface, or a fish which stays on the bottom and doesn't seem to be able to easily rise. A fish which has normal buoyancy but is listing to one side or the other often does not have swim bladder disease, but may have other diseases
In order to understand swim bladder disease, a cursory discussion of fish anatomy and physiology is necessary. The swim bladder is a small epithelium-lined sac in the anterior abdomen which is responsible for maintaining buoyancy. It has a close association with blood vessels such that gases can diffuse across into and out of the sac according to the needs of the fish. The sac inflates if the fish needs to be more buoyant, and it deflates if the fish needs to be less buoyant. Goldfish and some other fish have a special addition to this system called the pneumocystic duct, which is a connection between the swim bladder and the esophagus, allowing additional adjustment of buoyancy by letting air out through the digestive tract.

People have debated for years over the cause of swim bladder disease. It is pretty well established now that a number of things can cause swim bladder disease. Some of the things which have been suggested are:


A virus. The virus attacks the epithelium of the sac and inflammation occurs which makes the epithelium too thick for gases to diffuse across. Thus the fish is stuck at a certain buoyancy because gases have nowhere to go. This may be more of a factor in non-goldfish species.
A bacterium. There is little evidence to support this, but it's widely known that bacterial infections can cause the same kind of thickening of the swim bladder epithelium as viruses.
Anatomy. Globoid-shaped fish like ornamental goldfish are predisposed to problems with the swim bladder because their guts are all squashed up in their abdomen. This arrangement predisposes to food impactions, which in turn clog up the pneumocystic duct.
Diet. Feeding dry foods which tend to take on water like a sponge and expand in the fish predispose to food impactions.

What can I do to prevent swim bladder disease?
As always, the golden rule of fish disease is WATER QUALITY. If swim bladder disease does have an infectious cause, your fish will be better able to resist this infection (and others) if your water quality is good. Regular water changes and water testing are a must.
Pre-soak your flake or pelleted food. This will allow expansion to occur prior to the fish eating it, and will lessen the chance of impaction.
Even better, switch to a gel-based food or other food source, i.e. frozen or live food.
Feed your fish a couple of peas. Just get some frozen peas, thaw them, and feed them to your fish. A professor of fish medicine at N.C. State College of Veterinary Medicine has done this in several cases with very good results. He thinks that the peas somehow encourage destruction of the impaction. No hard scientific data yet, but it's worth a try.
Fast your fish for a couple of days. Withhold all food for three or four days, and sometimes this alone will break up the impaction and return things to normal. Most fish can go a week to ten days without food and be just fine.
Periodic aspiration of the swim bladder works very well. Basically, you stick a needle in the swim bladder and suck out some of the air. Not something to be entered into lightly, but does work well. This is not a cure, but a successful treatment. The head veterinarian at the Baltimore Aquarium prefers this method.

But the best thing to do is to prevent it from happening in the first place.

I have to agree with Zoe. I have never heard of "reverse bladder" problems. Sounds more like constapation. Try the peas hun.
Zoology is not Ichthyology or Limnology.
Also, do not stress your fish out buy adding too many too quickly.

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/fish_diseases/swim_bladder.html