Michael Jordan or Bill Russell, who's better at their prime and who was more dominate in the finals?

Question

I say MJ's the greatst & was more dominate then Russell in their finals appearances. Because it's not how many you win, it's how you win(Thanks Hoopfan). MJ hold's countless records in the finals to Russells few(check NBA's Finals records), MJ was unbeaten in the finals, 6-0 & Russell was 11-1, MJ have more total points in the finals then Russell(even with Russell doubling the amount of appearances 12 to MJ's 6), MJ's stats are recorded to be alot better then Russell's stats in finals history(go to www.bostonceltics.com & look up Russell, it says " Russell wasn't great with stats, but it was about his will to win is why he won"), MJ has more finals clutch shots then Russell, MJ has more memorbale finals moments, career wise MJ's records, stats, and accomplishments overwhelmes Russell's, MJ done it in a much tougher NBA(in Russell's ara a 6'6 guard didn't exist & the only 7 footer was Wilt, Russell's ara was a much smaller & less talented NBA), & MJ was voted ESPN'S, BEST ATHLETE EVER!

Answer 1

I've been waiting for this.....


Assuming that you mean better "all around", the answer is Bill Russell. And as far as playoff dominance, MJ isn't even close to Bill Russell.

I will answer all your claims with just one sentence: "MICHAEL JORDAN TOOK MORE SHOTS THAN ANYONE !" So, its only logical that he's going to score more points!

Jordan took TWICE AS MANY SHOTS as Russell did. So mathamatically speaking, he should score more points than Russell. Plus, he had the benefit of the 3-point shot, which Russell didn't.

But what else has Jordan done? If it doesn't have anything to do with scoring, not much. Yes, he was a pretty good defender, but no where as near as dominant as Russell. Remember, blocked shots were never kept as a statistic until the early 70's, otherwise Russell (and Wilt) would still own that record.

I keep going back to the fact that Russell AVERAGED 30 rebounds in 11 finals wins. That to me is more unbelievable than Jordans scoring. I mean, can you imagine anyone today doing that?

As far as clutch shots and memorable moments (I don't remeber any) , you don't specify, so I can't comment.

Eleven championships to six to me means that Russell and his teams accomplished more than Jordan did. And don't give me that B.S. about the height or quality of players back then. The NBA was much, much tougher back then. You only had 9-10 teams back then, not 29 like when Jordan played. Every team was loaded with all-stars, and you had to play them several time a year, not twice. When Jordan played, you had a bunch of expansion teams with one all-star and a bunch of mediocre players. Yes, they were bigger, stronger and faster, but the players from Russells era were much more fundementally sound and smarter.

ESPN is a corporation in the business of making a profit. They do this by appealing to the "casual basketball fan" like yourself. Michael Jordan was the one that was marketed most heavily ,because his flashy style of play made for the best highlights. So, Jordan made ESPN alot of money, hence his reward of "best athlete".

Great players like Bill Russell get their credit from teammates and opponents, and educated basketball fans. Not from "consumers" like yourself.

EDIT... o.k. genius....here's the link:

www.nba.com/encyclopedia/players/bill_russell.html

About 13-14 paragraphs up from the bottom, it shows his stats for the 11 championship wins; 18 ppg/29.45 rpg. Now, can I get back into this debate?

james, if you take Bill Russell off the Celtics, they don't win all those championships. End of story. All of his former teammates and Red Aeurbach have said this. So you have it backwards, it was more like Russell "rescuing" the Celtics.

And back then, there were only 9-10 teams, so Wilt (the most dominant player ever) and Russell squared off at least 10-12 times a season, plus 4,5,6 or 7 time in the playoffs. So Wilt scoring 50 points 7 times is not that great a percentage, considering how many times they played each other.

And who did Jordan have to guard that was so great? Most of the time Jordan guarded the least threatening of the scorers, so he wouldn't get tired out playing defense.

Off the top of my head, I can remember Reggie Miller shooting that game winning '3' in Jordan's face in the 1998 conference finals (when everyone in the building knew who was getting the ball). The one where Jordan whined "he pushed off". See, it can happen to even the greatest defenders.

If Jordan was so dominant, then why did it take him almost 8 years to win a championship? And why did it take him 4 years before his Bulls even broke .500? Great players would NEVER allow that to happen. Magic won a championship in his rookie season, Bird in his second year . Bill Russell won it in his rookie season.

Who did Russell face during his career......

Elgin Baylor> Top 50, HOF
Bob Pettit> Top 50 , HOF
Lenny Wilkins > Top 50, HOF
Jerry West > Top 50, HOF
Wilt Chamberlain> Top 50, HOF
Nate Thurmond> Top 50, HOF
Hal Greer> Top 50, HOF
Billy Cunningham> Top 50, HOF
Willis Reed> Top 50, HOF
Walt Frazier> Top 50, HOF
Dave Debusschere> Top 50, HOF
Dolph Schayes> Top 50, HOF
Oscar Robertson> Top 50, HOF
Jerry Lucas> Top 50, HOF
Elvin Hayes> Top 50, HOF
Dave Bing> Top 50, HOF
Earl Monroe> Top 50, HOF
Wes Unseld> Top 50, HOF

More hall of famers... Cliff Hagen, Vern Mikkelson, Ed Macauley, Clyde Lovellette, Gail Goodrich, Walt Bellamy, Bill Bradley, Bailey Howell.

That's 18 players in the top 50 list and 26 in the hall of fame that Russell had to compete against. ANY QUESTIONS?!?

NO , JAMES.....What that means is that the competition was much tougher when Russell played, thats why there were so many game 7's. What other legitimate "great team" was there in the 1990's? Utah? Give me a break. The league was pathetic when Jordan won his championships.

ONE AGAIN JAMES..... More teams and more players does NOT make the league tougher. As a matter of fact, it works the exact opposite. The more teams and players there are, the more watered-down the league becomes.

Imagine if the Bulls had to play Larry Bird and the Celtics 10 times a year. And in that same year, they had to play Magic, Kareem and the Lakers 10 times. And in that same year, they had to play Dr. J and the 76ers 10 times. Would the Bulls have won 70 games ??? If you say yes, I'm done talking to you.

Now, when I'm talking about the quality of the league going down, I'm talking after 1991. The competition in the 80's was at an all-time high, when there was only 23 teams.

Look at the make-up of the "Dream Team"....all 80's players. But Jordan wasn't able to win anything against great competition. Russell did.

And no, Larry Bird has ALWAYS said that Magic Johnson was the best player he ever saw. When he said that "God disguised as...", he was talking about ONE GAME!!

Again, read my posts more carefullly....Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, Dolph Schayes, Walt Bellamy, Wes Unseld, and Jerry Lucas were ALL CENTERS, and all hall of famers, and all on your beloved top 50 list. You probably never heard of them because they're not on Sportscenter. And once again, Russell had to face these guys everynight!

Just because they didn't win any "IBM Awards", doesn't mean they're not good. LOL

Answer 2

Michael Jordan by far, although its hard to compare because of the lack of an ESPN back in the days of Russel to analyze and show every great thing he did, also the block--Russell's most dangerous weapon on defense wasn't recorded as a stat during his career. But from clips Jordan was more skillful and athletic then Russell and could be trusted with the ball on offense at the end of an important game. Also like you said the competition is much different, the players are bigger, faster, stronger, and more skillful then just about anything Russell ever came across. Thats why they call Jordan the greatest player of all time and Russell the greatest winner.

Answer 3

This is hard because you are comparing across eras and across positions. I think Jordan was the greatest ever, but that doesn't diminsh Russell's accomplishments. Also consider that Russell was a player coach (maybe the first NBA black coach?). Russell also played on a better team than Jordan.

Answer 4

They both were great in their times. Look at kobie and wade i think wade and kobie are better players then jordan. I am a big bulls fan and i just said that some one pinch me

Answer 5

Michael Jordan hommie king of basketball !!!

Answer 6

Michael Jordan, greatest of all time.

Answer 7

MJ all the way.

Answer 8

HOOPFAN summed it up quite nicely...

Answer 9

MJ may have won some defensive player of the year awards, but this award was not given out until after Russell retired, knuckleheads. (CORRECTION: IT WAS ONLY GIVEN OUT DURING HIS FINAL SEASON... HOW'S HE SUPPOSED TO WIN AN AWARD THAT DOESN'T EXIST, IDIOT?)

The reason Russell didn't have more "1st team all NBA" selections is because only ONE center is selected, vs. TWO guards... Russell was competing with Wilt Chamberlain... but notice that Russell STILL won MVP awards even when he wasn't first team all NBA...

ALSO, HE HELD WILT TO 22 POINTS IN GAME 7 OF THE PLAYOFFS, AFTER WILT AVERAGED OVER 50 POINTS PER GAME IN THE REGULAR SEASON. When did Jordan ever hold ANYONE to 28 points under their average? NEVER HAPPENED, least of all in a Game 7.

Russell was the greatest defensive player who ever lived.

He was also better and more "dominate" (sic) than Jordan at all levels.

In college, he won back to back NCAA championships, and his team won 55 straight games.

Russell averaged MORE THAN 20 POINTS AND MORE THAN 20 REBOUNDS PER GAME IN COLLEGE. How many players have done that in NCAA history? (I'll give you a hint, less than 10, and no, MJ wasn't one of them).

Russell is the only player to win an NCAA championship, an Olympic Gold Medal one year, and an NBA championship as a rookie in the next season .

Also, Russell won as many MVPs as Jordan (five), despite competing head to head with Wilt (who won four). (Finals MVPs were not given out when Russell was dominating the Finals with performances like those listed below).

Again, yeah Russell was 11-1 in the finals...the only final he lost was when he played on a BROKEN ANKLE. And it still went six games. (Remember when Michael played a Finals game with the FLU? Wow, what a trooper he was! LOL)

Scoring: Jordan took 2,200 (TWO THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED) more shots in playoff competition than Russell did, despite playing FEWER minutes (Jordan was not nearly as durable).

Bill Russell was 10-0 in game 7s.

Bill Russell in game 7s:

57 NBA Finals - 19 pts 32 rebounds

59 East Finals - 18 pts 32 rebounds

60 NBA Finals - 22 pts 35 rebounds (Russell's eye was hemorrhaging in this game, result of getting hit... but hey, let's not forget, Jordan played with the sniffles one time)

62 East finals - 19 pts, don't have rebound number (this was against Wilt..he also held Wilt to 22 pts, after Wilt averaged 50 ppg during the regular season)

62 NBA finals - 30 pts 40 rebounds (THE GREATEST PLAYOFF PERFORMANCE IN HISTORY...THIRTY POINTS, FORTY REBOUNDS in GAME SEVEN)... Gee, wonder who would have been MVP of this final, had the award then existed?

63 East finals - 20 pts, don't have rebound number

65 East finals - 15 pts 29 rebounds 9 assists (against Wilt)

66 NBA finals - 25 pts 32 rebounds

68 East finals - 12 pts, held Wilt to 14. Also chipped in 26 rebounds

69 NBA finals - 21 rebounds vs. Wilt...won his 11th title in a 13 year NBA career... that was his final game

Nah, no dominance there whatsoever. Russell was all but invisible during these games .

Once again, any center who put up these kind of numbers in a final would be MVP of the finals today, EVEN IF HE PLAYED ON A LOSING TEAM.

Hoopfan makes an excellent point about ESPN's reasons for "choosing" MJ as the "greatest athlete". Here's an interesting article about that "contest"

http://www.andersonsports.com/baseball/Aba_jor.htm

Jordan was known as a scorer (and only as a scorer), yet he's not close to the career scoring record.

Jordan's lauded by casual fans as the greatest because he won six rings...big deal... John Havlicek won eight, and of course, then, there was Bill Russell.

Here's one of the better sports quotes of recent years:

"Not Much" - Bill Russell, when asked what he tought of the Bulls'
'three-peat'... Russell led his team to EIGHT straight titles.


Re: the quality of centers in the NBA... how many of today's NBA centers are going to make the Hall of Fame? Answer... One... Shaq (unless you want to count Tim Duncan as a center, then the answer is two). You think Edie Curry's a Hall of Famer? Zdrunis Ilgauskas? Ben Wallace? LOL


Also, RUSSELL NEVER PLAYED AGAINST HIGH SCHOOL PLAYERS.

You said Wilt was the only 7 footer back then...that's not actually true, but even if it was, I don't think you can say the NBA players are better today simply because there are more 7 footers... I'm sure Russell could have more than held his own against Kwame Brown and other 7 footers in today's game.

As for the greatest sportswriter of the century, Jim Murray, here's what he put on HIS ESPN ballot:

Before he died, Murray voted on the ESPN Sports Century project, which was brilliantly conceived and produced in everything but the final chapter.

On Murray's ballot, Jordan was 15th.

When coordinating producer Mark Shapiro asked him how he could have chosen Jordan so low, Murray responded, "I'd like to see Michael Jordan try to dunk a basketball over Bill Russell."

Murray's first pick was (Jackie) Robinson.

His second pick was Babe Ruth.

Case closed. Jordan wasn't the greatest, he was simply the latest. And sportswriters have very, very short memories. Just watch Mike Lupica on the Sports Reporters if you don't believe me. The game (in whatever sport they're discussing) played the night before is always "the most intense game Lupica's EVER seen".

And actually, today's NBA guys like "Melo" and "Bron" and "D-Wade" can't even win an Olympic Gold Medal, they keep getting their heads handed to them by teams that play good, fundamental baskeball (but don't dunk as well). The USA is getting worse at basketball, not better. A bronze medal? How embarrassing!!

The other thing re: Jordan vs. Russell - the NBA kept changing the rules to try to curb Russell's dominance, but it didn't work... conversely, the NBA kept changing the rules to help guys like Jordan (e.g. moving the 3 point line in, since Jordan couldn't shoot 20% at the old distance... and allowing traveling, which used to be a violation of the rules...should I even go into "palming"?).


Re: Blocked shot records - you're an idiot...the reason we know that WIlt and Russell blocked more shots than anyone is because newspaper accounts of their games ROUTINELY mention them blocking 10-15 shots a game. The NBA didn't have official records of blocked shots, but people still kept track of such things... for example, in his first NBA game (against the Knicks) Wilt blocked 17 shots...to go with his 43 points and 28 rebounds...but he doesn't get credit for a triple-double... the NBA doesn't 'recognize' the blocked shots as a record, but reporters who were at the game kept track of these things themselves.

It's just like triple doubles... guys like Wilt, Russell and Oscar Robertson don't get full credit for all of the triple doubles they achieved because there was no such thing as a "triple double" in those days... "Triple Doubles" have only officially been recognized by the NBA since 1979.

LOL, love the way you talk about Jordan's era being "tougher" and then point out a bunch of guys that SHOULD HAVE been "top 50" players... yeah, Reggie Miller SHOULD have been... Dominique Wilkins SHOULD have been... wow, am I allowed to do that? Can I name some players from Russell's era (or from the 70s) that SHOULD HAVE been top 50, and count them as though they were, even though they weren't?

Players Russell faced in the finals that were top 50? Bob Pettit, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond...there's five off the top of my head...and that's only in the finals, without doing any other research...

You named a bunch of guys (Payton, Kemp, Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Stockton and Malone) who never won anything...

OMG, YOU THINK DANNY MANNING WAS GREAT???!!?!!? Didn't you ever see him PLAY? Doesn't sound like it. You're really, really getting desparate there, aren't you? LOL

This should give you a clue:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mannida01.html


FOR THE RECORD: Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell squared off 142 times in their ten year rivalry...that's FOURTEEN times per year for those of you still in grade school. Russell didn't get any nights off to play against high school players.

Russell came up a couple of years before Wilt did. Once Chamberlain entered the league, Russell played 142 out of 911 games (15.6 per cent of the time) against Chamberlain.

Multiply that by Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, Dolph Schayes, Jerry Lucas (all top 50s), and you get the idea.... there was no Zdrunis Ilgauskas' or Edie Currys back then, although Russell no doubt wishes there had been (he's especially have loved the luxury of going against Rik Smits and Todd MacCulloch in the finals).

Jordan never played against ANYBODY 142 times in his career.


HOOPFAN, YOU'RE ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH!! Whaddya mean you can't remember clutch shots and memorable moments from Michael's career??? If you go to NBA.com, they have video highlights of THE MOST MEMORABLE playoff moments in history...

Remember that 3 pointer Michael hit in the first half of game 1 of the 92 Finals against Portland?? That's there!! Talk about clutch!!!!

Remember the layup he hit against the Lakers with his left hand? That's there!!

How dare you accuse Jordan of a lack of memorable finals moments and incredible plays! We're talking a 3 POINTER, for cryin' out loud! AND... a layup!!

Answer 10

Yo Hoop's, what's up dog? You're crazy you know? MJ didn't just score, he's been defensive player of the year(1987-88), 9 times on NBA defensive 1st team(1987-88, 1988-89, 1989-90, 1990-91, 1991-92, 1992-93, 1995-96, 1996-97, 1997-98) he's led the league in steals 3 times(1987-88, 1989-90, 1992-93), and in the 1991 finals he avg. a double double, with 31.2 ppg & 11.4 apg. So he had other great stats as well as scoring in the finals & career wise.....And you're crazy for thinking rebounds are more important then points....lol.

This is for: Hoopfan, Tweety, & Kris13iam:
Here's some facts, questions & answers about Bill Russell & his dominace: If he was so dominate, tell me why out of 11 championships in 13 seasons he's only made NBA's 1st team twice in his career? I'll tell you why, because he wasn't even the most dominate center of his era. Back then he was more like a Ben Wallace of his era, a team leader that was a GOOD(not great) defensive player that wasn't so great on offense(maybe a little better offensive player then Big Ben but he still sucked at it). The only reason why he won 11 titles is because the Celtics was a great team(for back then). That team as a whole averaged 124.5 points a games. With Russell not being a great scorer that shows he had a TEAM to rescue him(like big Ben had the Pistons)...... About his defense: If he was so unstoppable on defense, then tell me why that he only made NBA's 1 defensive team once in his career? I'll tell you why, because he wasn't unstoppable or not even the best ever on defense. Examples: Wilt scored 50 or more points 7 times against Russell, including a high of 62 points on 1/14/1962, and it's known that some of Wilt's best scoring games was against Russell. A GREAT defensive player wouldn't never allow someone to DROP 62 ON THIER HEAD! Tell me when was the last time MJ was GUARDING someone and they score 50 or 60 points on him...And about the shot blocking, Hoops you said it yourself, "that they didn't keep up with them kind of stats back then", so how would you know if he'd hold a record at that til this day? If they didn't keep tract well no one knows, so that wasn't a legit comment.
About him averaging 30 rebounds in 11 finals: Once again Hoops, get your facts right. How did he average 30 rebounds in 11 finals, and the highest rebound average in a finals SERIES is 29.5( 1959, held by Russell), his rookie year he averaged 22.9 rebounds in the finals, and his career playoff rebound stats are 24.9(now do the math)? I'll tell you why, because he didn't. Hoops you're on here making up stats to try to make Russell sound better then MJ. Until you get your stats and facts right, NO ONE SHOULD LISTEN TO WHAT YOU SAY!... And Kris 13iam had the nerve to say Hoopfan summed it up... Ya'll both crazy! At least all my stats and facts on both players are the truth, and I don't have to try to make MJ look greater, because he just is.
I was going to comment on some of other Hoops comments, but I'd rather not. He's already lost this debate(due to he's not telling the truth).
Now Tweety: MJ scored more then Russell not because he took more shots, it's because MJ's a better scorer. If Russell would of took as many shots as MJ did, he'd still wouldn't have as many points and he would of hurt his team and the Celtics would of lost( could you imagine Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman shooting all the time? ).....and another thing Tweety, read the post right before you comment. The post is saying MJ out scored him is their finals history, it's didn't say anything about the entire playoffs.... So before you make any comments get your facts right and understand the post...
About the era's: Okay guys be real, it's a known fact that MJ's era was alot tougher. Most of the top 50 greatst was in MJ's era(Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Drexler, Ewing, Isiah Thomas, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Wilkins(he should of been one), Reggie Miller(he should of been one)Kareem, Dr J, Worthy, Parish, McHale & etc.) All them players listed MJ has faced them in his career(all them players are great at fundamentals). MJ also faced KG, KJ, Duncan, Kobe, the Glove, Kemp, Mourning, a young healthy Grant Hill, a young healthy Penny Hardaway, Tim Hardaway, Danny Manning, Larry Johnson, and plenty other greats. As matter of fact, his era assembled the greatst team ever(The Dream Team). So don't come with that crap saying Russell's era was greater then MJ's. MJ proved himself against better competition(in his entire career and the finals.
In the finals MJ competed against, Magic, Drexler, Barkely & KJ, The Glove & Kemp, Malone & Stockton(twice), and still remains unbeaten. Now at least 5 of them players are in the top 50. Now give a list that Russell faced in the finals & career wise. Case close!

I'm back again... Why are ya'll comparing by ONE game? You don't compare players by one game, you compare them by consistency.... And stat wise MJ was more consistent threw out a series and career wise. Just check for yourselves. Go to USA Today NBA Finals Records.com.....MJ's accomplishments in the finals are much more amazing then Russell's. Case close!

Edit: Hey Hoops, once again, your facts are not right! How did Russell avgerage 29.45 rpg in 11 finals and the highest point average in finals history is 29.5 rpg? If that was true, Russell would of averaged 29. somethin threw out 11 finals......and that's not true. Because he averaged low as 18.6 rpg in the 1968 finals, and his rookie year he averaged, 22.9 rpg in the finals. Like I said before...DO THE MATH!
OKay, here's another fact about Russell's defense. Wilt & Russell faced one another 143 times, Wilt averged 28.7 ppg & 28.7 rbg against Russell(That's great D, huh?).....and Hoops, how are you going to compare 1 three point shot to 62 points on someones head!....lol. Now...Great scorers that MJ played against. Well lets see...Kobe Bryant(he's capable of scoring 81, 1 time scoring champ), T-Mac(he's capable of scoring 60+, 2 times scoring champ), Reggie Miller(the all time 3 point leader), a young Penny Hardaway(was being compared to Magic before injuries), and none of them scored 50 or 60 points on MJ....should I go on? .....Hears a another list of great players MJ played against in his caeer: Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, a healthy T-Mac, Dirk, Nash, Yao, Steve Francis, Ray Allen, Ben Wallace(defensive player of the year more then once), Chauncey Billups(a finals mvp), Rip Hamilton(has a ring), Lee Nailon(apart of Dawg-Life, South East Side!), Jaraan Cornell(Purdue's all-time 3 point king, in a 1 on 1 game), a young healthy Webber, Dan Marley & etc...... MJ's era also assembled the Dream Team. I bet you guys couldn't take players from Russell's era and assemble a better team then the Dream Team. As matter of fact, if the guys you named(I didn't know half of them, that speaks on their greatness..lol) in Russell's era formed a team and played the superstars I named, your team would get blown out(if all were at their prime)! MJ & Magic as starting guards, Karl Malone & Dr, J as starting forwards, & Shaq as starting center. Their back ups would be Kobe, Iverson, Drexler, Jaraan Cornell, Penny, Miller as guards, back up forwards would be, Garnet, Duncan, Webber, Wilkins, Bird, Pippen, Barkley as forwards, Hakeem the Dream(he'll also school Russell), Patrick Ewing, Robinson, Kareem as centers(all these guys MJ's faced in his career). You couldn't form a better team from Russell's era.
Okay...here's another correction. It took MJ 7 not 8. .....and the reason why it took him so long is because he came to a team like how the Bobcats are now. Magic came to a team with a proven NBA champ already on it(Kareem, one of the best centers in history)........Now another thing about Russell & MJ's Dominace...Now pay attention.....Tweety you said it yourself, Russell's been in multiple game 7's(alot more then MJ has)...Russell also been in game 7's in the finals fighting til the last second....See there, that's not dominace, that's being competitve. MJ was so dominate that he doesn't know how a game 7 feels in the finals. His series in the finals were like 4-1 or 4-2. MJ wouldn't allow a game 7 in the finals(Now that's dominace) He also overshadowed all of his competiton in every game they were in. Being the guy with the most dominate performance of the entire series(that's dominance). While Russell was getting out scored & out rebound by Wilt(that's not dominance, that's getting schooled...lol).......And the most dominate performance threw out a finals is MJ in 1993, he raised the bar. That series is the highest ppg by anyone in finals history, 41.0ppg. No one has done that..... and Tweety, I didn't say defensive player of the year, I said NBA's 1st All-Defensive team, Russell been on their once to MJ's 9 times.......and if MJ and Russell's team would of went at it, MJ would of been dunking, fading away, & doing all kind of high-light moves on Russell & his team. Because Wilt scoring 62 on Russell's head & averaging 28.7ppg against Russell, is proof that Russell & his team couldn't stop a great offensive players like MJ & Wilt........Now in closing.....The only thing you guys could say is that Russell has more rings, and it isn't how many you win, it's how you win. He maybe have 11 titles(team achievments) but MJ have more individual accoleds, NBA records, & awards(his achievments). Now that's dominance...Case close!


Okay Hoops, I'm about to shut you down....... Here I go.... Man I can't believe that your example of Russell's era being tougher is that they had 9-10 teams back then....Now anybody in their right mind would know that it's tougher to play in a bigger league with more people in it......You have more superstars, more styles matchups, you're traveling alot more, you're trying to figure out alot more different defenses/offenses, it's harder to get familar with someone(it's easier to play against someone that you know well because you know their every move,), and the fact that it's a BIGGER league.......... Response to your answer on the other post: Hakeem played against more superstar CENTERS(same position as him) thanks for your correction, Russell only had Wilt. The guys you named wasn't centers.........and once again, MJ played against great players and great teams(each team had at least 2 or 3 superstars on it)......it was his dominance over the other great players is the reason why it wasn't any game 7's. When MJ was playing, the other superstars in the league(Magic, Bird, Barkley, & etc..) openly admitted that they were all equal except for MJ. They often said, their is us & their is MJ, he play in a much higher league of his OWN(now that's dominace)!....... Even Russell's fellow Celtic brother Larry Legend said " That's not Michael Jordan, that's God disguised as MIchael Jordan"! Now that is the biggest complement you could ever recieve from a fellow proven champion!...Now that's greatness, dominace, & just being the best that ever did it! MJ is THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME & HE PROVED IT! Case close!!!!!!!


Edit: Hey Hoops, well why do all these experienced professional sports people(old & young) says the league back in Russell's era isn't tough as the 70's, 80's, 90's or even now? Even Dr. J. said about himself, that he was better then everyone else in his era, is because he was a 90's player playing in the 70's, meaning that he was ahead of his time.......and all them HOF players you named half of them wasn't great(they were good for back then). I mean the NBA couldn't just leave the HOF blank until the 70's, 80's & 90's players came along. They had to induct somebody, and what was good for back then is who they inducted........ And if them centers you named were so great, well why isn't they remembered like Russell, Wilt, Baylor, West, & Oscar? ........And here's another example why the league was weaker. Because back then it wasn't no FREE AGENCY. Players had to stay with their teams threw out their career unless they got traded. See the Celtics had a all-star cast and wasn't going to split that team up. There were players on the Celtics that put up higher scoring numbers then Russell did every night.......and it was actually only 2 good teams back then(Lakers & Celtics)..........and yes, if MJ & The Bulls would of only played 1 good team several times a year they would of won more then 70.....exspecially The Bulls already being the most dominate team in history. They would of beat that 1 good team more times then that 1 good team would have beaten them, and the rest of the NBA they would of got ran all over......... The players back then was smaller & less talented(that's a proven fact). They wouldn't of knew how to compete with players that's got skills as a guard that goes all the way up to 7 foot. MJ's era had people like KG(a 7ft. guy with guard skills that can shoot from outside), and 6'9 point guards like Magic & Penny. The players in the 80's & 90's are to big, strong, fast, and agile for the players in Russell's era.....Like I said, big men who can dribble, shoot from outside, and can pass like point guards...... How is Russell's era going to compete with that? 80's & 90's have to many miss matches for Russell's era...... and Hoop's you said it yourself, how am I going to compare a 7ft. guys hook shot to a 6'6 guys fade away? You said it because you realize the miss match there........now I ask, well why can't you realize the miss matches of the 2 era's we're debating about? The 80's & 90's have alot more 7 footers & big men in general that's muti talented.................and the fact that Russell was getting all them rebounds is proof enough that he didn't have any talented big men to match his size & talent. If I was the only legit big man on the floor I'll be out rebounding everyone too........He didn't have no one to match him but Wilt...and that's the reason why we only hear their 2 names( because they were the only legit big men). MJ's era has multiple big men that's going to be remembered............Now about MJ's finals moments, I'm not even going to go there.... I know ya'll seen it, watched it, was very impressed by it, and remember every great thing MJ did in the finals. MJ has countless finals moments...........