What do you think of these reforms to redress disparity in reproductive rights between men and women?

Question

See my previous questions on men having no reproductive rights to opt out of unwanted pregnancy, like women do, but have a forced responsibility to child support if she decides to opt in if you don't understand this question. I'm curious as to what sort of response I get from offering solutions.

There are a number of solutions by which the disparity in reproductive rights between men and women can be solved.

Here are some that are being looked at:

#1 Allow men to irrevocably relinquish their parental rights and responsibilities by filling out an affidavit within a limited period after finding out that they've been involved in a conception.

#2 Unilateral Adoption Lobby for a law requiring two voluntary parents, otherwise the child is put up for adoption.

#3 Damages paid to the father by the mother who forced him into parenthood after the child is grown up.

#4 Take away the right to vote from people who forced another into parenthood.

Agree with them yes/no, why?

Sean P: You obviously didn't read my previous question as per instruction:

"If you choose to do something reckless, such as drive a car too fast, and you hit somebody, can you opt out of paying the damages? No."

In the case of pregnancy the female CAN, in a number of ways, the man CAN'T. Why? Reproductive right disparity.

And in every one of those proposals there is something stopping the man. Not to mention women having some semblance of responsibility. Basically you are arguing that there should be nothing to stop women from being irresponsible and hitting men up for child support.

And to the other one: Women *do* force a man into parenthood intentionally, if he says he does not wish to be a father, the options of abortion and adoption are available, but she REFUSED to take them and then claimed child support. So it was completely wilful.

No more answers saying "things are fine the way they are", if you can't comment on the actual proposals you don't know enough to be answering.

Incidentally, I was curious at to how a more positive approach would go. If I get the same results with a positive approach as I do when I bag feminists for being morons, then the latter is far more amusing.

Mother of flute player: Asides from the obvious fact that you are a hypocrite and are fine with the woman being only as responsible as she wants to be and no more, reforms that have men and women accepting similar responsibility will actually REDUCE the amount of illegitimate children.

I still don't think anyone has actually read and understood these proposals.

AT LAST! Someone actually commented on the suggestions! Thankyou Kim K. For #3 I did mean in the future, however I can see the point that people would end up seeking damages for the past. I still think #4 is better than nothing.

Almost none of the issues I've discussed on here have any personal relevance, mostly it's me sticking up for my bro's, although I do think child support encouraging women to become single mothers is ruining our society.

Answer 1

I like Jeepwife's idea...a presex contract.
Of course there'd have to be a lot of refinement...yes we want a child, no we don't, he's on birth control, she's on birth control....
if an accident happens than "x" , "y", or both take responsibility.
In answer to the questions:
#1. Of course they should...the woman can. The other side of this is that there would have to be a requirement on the woman's side to notify the man (if she even knows who it is)
#2. As long as one parent can adopt without legal hassles...mother or father
#3. Whoooooaaaa...this brings up a whole different set of issues. Are we talking about what should be done in the future, or what should be done to make up for the past?
#4. That's just stupid
I'm just guessing...you either are the girlfriend/wife of a man with an unwanted child...or...you're the sperm donor for a gold digger?

Answer 2

Both parties have equal parental rights and obligations. A man is not obligated to care for a woman who is pregnant. He does not have to cover the cost of prenatal care, he is not obligated to support her during the pregnancy, nor does he have to pay the costs associated with labor and delivery. If he wants to, he can be entirely absent for whole of the 9 months. Similarly, if a woman does not want to accrue these costs either, she can have an abortion. Both the man and the woman are equally able to "walk away from a pregnancy". Once a child is in the world, however, both parents are financially responsible for its care and well-being. It's not a punitive measure- it's a way to ensure that said child is cared and provided for. And no, I do not believe that not wanting a child makes a man a deadbeat dad- of course not. What makes someone a "deadbeat" father or mother is not providing for said child, and I feel equally negatively about mothers who abandon their children as I do towards fathers who do so. Pregnancy unfortunately takes place inside of a woman, and if a man wants a child and the pregnant individual does not, this fact means that she gets the right to decide how to proceed. Anything less than that is violating her right to privacy and bodily autonomy- a man does not get to force a woman to be an incubator to gestate a pregnancy against a woman's will (now *that* would be a very unequal right!). It'd be great if it were different- if we laid eggs, anybody who wanted to incubate and raise 'em could. But we're mammals and we try to respect reproductive rights, ergo the pregnant individual must have the final say. Hope that helps explain it!

Answer 3

I have a solution for you that I think will work and satisfy your twisted little brain.

Go up to heaven, have a chat with god, and ask him to make MEN the ones that get pregnant!

But, I guess you cant do that, so just live with the fact that biologically, it is the women that get pregnant. I know you say that we have more 'reproductive rights' but in general that is not true. Most women could not even conceive the notion of abortion or adoption for our children. For us, it is not simply 'a choice' that we have - we get pregnant so we deal with the consequences. some women dont see it like this and have no qualms about abortion/adoption etc, but the majority of us see it as a blessing. (It seems strange to me that here you may be suggesting that abortion is a responsible thing to do: however, in a previous question you said this: "You are arguing that a woman who can kill an unborn child or abandon it is taking full responsibility. That is ridiculous far beyond the point of being pathetic."

Hypocritical?????

Men are as much to blame in getting a woman pregnant, so they have to deal with that too.

If a man and women are going to have sex, they should have this type of discussion before hand. My husband knew from the beginning that if I fell pregnant, than there would be no abortion or adoption. The fact that he continued to sleep with me meant that his choice was to stand by me if that happened. If he wasnt not willing to live with that, he could have left. Everybody knows that every time they sleep with someone there is a risk, so they should practice abstinence if they dont want children at all.

Answer 4

I understand this question. I have a 43 yr old brother who is in the same position with a real evil 23 yr old woman. It also effects a situation in which my 30 yr old daughter has had 4 abortions, including 3 in one year. How come unwanted pregnancies are still happening in 2007? Why, if you don't want kids, do you choose not to double or triple the protection? There are multiple ways of protection available today. What prevents you from being proactive in ensuring that you are not going to end up being a parent? Have you ever considered getting fixed so you will NEVER be a parent? If you choose not to protect yourself, or protect yourself adequately to your own priority level, then you are liable for the outcomes, good and bad. In regards to the options, I would have more appetite to look at option #1 and wish I could not see the extreme bitterness that comes out with options 2, 3, & 4. All the wah wah you want, you are 50% responsible and it is what I told my brother when he came wah wahing to me.

Answer 5

Discussion limited to hetrosexual, consensensual sexual intercourse:

What I find so amazing is that from feminists and apologists for feminists (wannabees) is that the advice they try to give to or about what men should do applies equally to them in the same situation yet they feel that additional options for only women is somehow equal. I guess because they consider women stupid, I dunno.

Take for example the replies that consider it right that men who do not want to help create a pregnancy abstain from sex or at the least, use contraception. Would not exactly the same advice be used for women in reference to pregnancy and abortion?

In response to the idea that men should have a vasectomy until they are ready to be a parent (apparently not knowing that many vasectomies are irreversal and any reversal is major surgery and very expensive) Should they not also say that women have a tubal until they are ready to become pregnant?

In response to the idea that men who have sex better be ready to become a parent, shouldn't women be forced to be responsible for their actions in the same way, that being that once their choice to have sex and pregnancy occurs, there are no other options for either?

A simple way to create equality is legislate that all people involved in any sex, pregnancy, abortion, custody, support, etc., to be completely equal. This would force the adopting of laws allowing men to legally abort any fetus (legal form denying parenthood) up to the same age that women can legally abandon an infant and allow them equal ability to decide they want to be a parent with 50% custody (physical and legal custody) and donate 50% toward the real, actual expenses of the child. Of course, women who claim there "is no father" or is unknown or dead would be solely responsible for the cost of any children they created unless they can get someone else to agree to do so.

Currently in the US, women have several forms of birth control, men have one, ok. At least both have SOME form of contraception.

After sex, men's choices are: whatever the woman chooses. He has NO other legal options.

Women's unilateral choices are:
taking the morning after pill;
abortion to kill the fetus (for any or no reason);
abandonment of the child soon after pregnancy at hospitals, fire or police stations and several other places;
lie about the paternity, say the father died or is just unknown (which is often true) and adopt the baby out;
she may decide to keep the baby and in so doing can demand the father pay her.

Ok, women only can become pregnant so only women can have abortions. What physiological attachment then can be used to demand payment from the male in this scenario? Using the argument that 'when men are pregnant, they can have an abortion as well' is basically a nonsensical, juvenile taunt. Using the same vein of thought, women who don't want to become pregnant should have a vasectomy. Both are ridiculous, childish.

The idea behind giving women so many options and opportunities to change their mind should infuriate women. What the laws are saying is that women are like children, unable to understand what causes pregnancy. Because they don't understand they are given several outs after pregnancy occurs up to and including forcing another (or others) to support the child that only exists because of the two unilateral choices she made that created a child.

Your options above: #1, good for both. It is equal for both partners. Going further, fathers who choose to do so should be considered to be to, and as much a parent as, the mother in all aspects of law, custody and support.

#2 we pretty well have now if the mother chooses. This does NOTHING to limit the number of illegitimate children being born and quite possibly will create a situation where 60% or more of all children then wind up being put up for adoption because women can just allow the state to take the child instead of aborting, which would be favorable to one that considers abortion to be abhorrent. This would be VERY expensive for the state, worse than welfare.
#3 I may not understand. How would a man be damaged solely by becoming a parent? Did you mean forcing her to repay child support with interest for forcing child support on him? I'm unclear about what you mean on this one.
#4 would do little to nothing. Most people don't vote now, which is partly why we are in the mess we are to start with. This would be restrictive and appear to be biased against women so I can't see this ever getting off the ground.

Answer 6

First of all, you are not pregnant. If men had the right to opt out of an unwanted pregnancy, there would be nothing to stop men for sleeping around and conceiving any number of illegitiment children. When a man is fooling around with a woman, he takes the risk of conceiving. Then you must take the responsibility. Let's look at a different, yet vaguely similar situation: If you choose to do something reckless, such as drive a car too fast, and you hit somebody, can you opt out of paying the damages? No. Similar concept.

Answer 7

Maybe some type of agreement should be signed before hopping into bed with the person so "all's clear." Actually, people have to be responsible for the decisions they make and men should be responsible for birth control just like women. If men are going to push women into sex they've got to see the long term consequences as their responsibility too.

Answer 8

Its not gonna happen. Unless you want children with that woman do not have sex outside a brothel. If you live in America avoid states which are hard on prostitution like the plague.

Answer 9

I hear a lot of talk about rights, but not too much concern about responsibilities.

A man has a right not to have children. If you don't want children, go to the doctor and get a vasectomy. Simple.

But if you know that you are capable of producing a child, don't blame anyone but yourself if it happens. You don't have a right to have sex without any consequences. You don't have a right to create another fatherless child. And you certainly don't have a right to not support a child that is yours.

God knows how many fatherless kids my tax dollars are going to support!

Why don't you think about someone besides yourself?

Answer 10

Baba Yaga, you forgot number 4. Applied to woman: keep your legs closed.