Separation Of Church And State - Author-Thomas Jefferson- Did you know?

Question

Did you know that two days after Thomas Jefferson (the man who coined the phrase) wrote that phrase in a letter to Baptists in Connecticutt that he attended a church service held at the House of Representatives building on Capitol Hill?

He did so repeatedly ever Sunday thereafter through out his term in office. Jefferson believed government at all levels could accommodate religious expression -- even worship services -- as long as it was voluntary and the state didn't pick favorites. Jefferson saw no conflict between the First Amendment and the availability of public property, public facilities and even government personnel to religious bodies. At one point Jefferson remarked "that no nation could be governed without religion", he did not have in mind the corrupted variety of government churches. In this, he argued exactly as the most pious Founders did: Religious belief -- freely chosen and given wide public space -- nurtured morality and thus supported a free society.

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed122701c.cfm

The point behind this post isn't about whether or not Thomas Jefferson was a Christian. The point of this thread is to point out how for over a century people have twisted the phrase 'Separation of Church and State' to mean something that was never the intended meaning by the person who first said it. .

Answer 1

Hi Proud,

I've read the previous posts, and frankly, I don't think they understand what you're getting at. Yes, Jefferson had nothing to do with writing the Constitution or the Bill of Rights; but his assertion of the "Wall of Separation" has since become canon among those who wish to eliminate the influence of religion in public life. That is why Jefferson's actions are important. They give concrete meaning to his true intentions.

You're quite right. Jefferson was essentially non-denominational and Deistic in his beliefs; but he had no intention of seeking to drive out religion from the civil life of the nation. He was only opposed to the religious compulsions that were still prevalent during his day.

The liberal jurist, William O. Douglas (certainly NO friend of conservatives) wrote in the famous opinion of Zorach v. Clauson (1952) -- "We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being."

The purpose of the Establishment Clause was never meant to eliminate the influence of religion in government. but was meant to eliminate governmental influence (as much as practical) in religion. As Douglas' quote implies, it would be quite impossible to extricate the basic religious precepts from institutions whose existence presuppose a Supreme Being.

I fully understand the trepidation many feel when they hear the empty religious pandering of politicians -- I too roll my eyes in despair. I can also sympathize with those who fear that some religionists want to impose their narrow doctrinal beliefs on the rest of society by whatever governmental compulsion they can lay their hands on.

But there can be no doubt -- the basic ideas of civil rights, the individual, and indeed, liberty itself, are all inconceivable in the absence of the Judeo-Christian tradition from which they emerged.

In fact, the Supreme Court has never (I repeat -- NEVER) adopted an exclusionary position on the subject of religion. Successive courts have allowed for government assistance in the forms of textbooks and school lunches to be given to parochial schools, and to allow adults seeking government tuition assistance to use government grants (Pell Grants, Tuition Assistance, the GI Bill, etc) for attending religious institutions of higher learning. And in 2002, in the case of Zelman v Simmons-Harris, allowed for public funded vouchers for poor families who wish to send their children to private (including religious) schools.

To say these things is not to imply that those who are out of sympathy with religion are somehow less American; BUT, it IS to say that who DO recognize these facts (and believe that religion has a vital role to play in the life of the republic) should not be treated as religious bigots who want to tyrannize others with their beliefs.

Hope this answer helps. Cheers.

Answer 2

Thomas Jefferson also kept slaves and slept with a few of them too. Is this also a precedent we can link back towards ?
Its is still an essential code for our society today to keep religion out of government. Remember, if the 18th C founders wanted to create a theocracy then, they would have. They certainly had ample opportunities to do so. Also remember how they, looking back to the Stuart Catholic monarchies prior to the Glorious Revolution, were determines NOT to allow an anti Parliamentarian European style government to take root after the revolution in America

Answer 3

Did you know where Thomas Jefferson was when the U.S. Constitution was written? In Paris, acting as our ambassador.
His ramblings on religion and government have NOTHING TO DO with our Constitutional values, since he was NOT ON THE CONTINENT WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN. By the way, Jefferson had some interesting ideas about religion, believing that almost all of the "New Testament" was false and not God-inspired.

Answer 4

Thomas Jefferson and the other founding fathers intended for us to have complete freedom of expression in religious matters.

Only recently has this separation issue begun to infringe on that right to prohibit expression of religion by government officials.

(By the way, the ACLU is losing almost all of these cases.)

Answer 5

I doubt if you will find any other reference to the separation, of church and state.. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. At the time thes was written it was meant prevent the government from picking one religion and making it the religion of the United States. At that time the only religion they had to deal with was Christianity in the form of either Protestant or Catholic and the countries in Europe were primarily Catholic and the Protestants were not always welcome this was meant to prevent that from happening in the US..

Answer 6

AT LAST AT LAST AT LAST, someone who is not blind, and can READ. THANK YOU SO MUCH. I have been stating this forever it seems. I cannot get people to believe that the Separation of Church and State IS NOT in the Constitution.

Answer 7

Jefferson was a lover of freedom (and some of his slavesas well!) he did not seek to impose his will upon others and was very progressive in that he believed in tolerance of different ideals.

Answer 8

Except for the Kosher $stamp of approval on most of our food items.

*That violates Truth in Advertising laws AND Separation of Church and State.

Answer 9

He spoke of "NO STATE SPONSERED RELIGION" Meaning that no US government taxes or forces would go to support or enforce religious groups and certainly not ONE alone.

Answer 10

Religion and gov must be separated right.