Religion as it relates to god... what do you think?

Question

Premise 1: We as humans cannot prove beyond doubt that god does or does not exist.

Premise 2: If god exists, it is perfect (because that is what defines it as god and makes it worth worshipping).

Premise 3: It must be true that only god is perfect, because if anything else were perfect, it'd be equal to god, and then god would have no real value.

Conclusion: It does not make sense to follow religion because what we'd learn and how we'd learn it is fundamentally flawed, supposing that god even exists.

So, what are your thoughts on the matter? I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say, provided that it's intelligent.

Wow, you guys are awesome!

I don't really understand how a perfect being could create imperfect things, either, LindaLou, but in my discussions with Luis G, the following things have come up.

-How do we know what is im/perfect? If we're imperfect, how do we know what perfect would be?
-What if everything is perfect and we just can't see it?
-What if im/perfect are the same things?Just automatically having answers is not as good as learning them for oneself... so perhaps "imperfect" things help us to learn what "perfect" is, and in so doing are perfect, as the fulfill their essence and purpose.

I very much like your explanation of the matter as well... I don't think we can know the big picture, though the concept of an afterlife puzzles me. Still, your thoughts are definitely intelligent, and I appreciate them.

What a beautiful thing to say...the same to you!

Well, most of you guys are awesome. Mostly Luis and Linda, though. And catsi563, and bhatia_dn.

As Gemelli2 has demonstrated, it is important to be mature when discussing philosophy, otherwise one achieves little if anything.

Mryia, I know that I have a brain because I've seen acutal pictures of it in my head before, and one can reasonably conclude from studying proven things in anatomy and biology that a living being such as myself needs a brain to survive at this level. A brain is not a matter of belief, it is there no matter what, and it can be proven in a dissection. The analogy is flawed, because one cannot dissect, perform experiments upon, or touch/see god, supposing it exists. If one could, then god wouldn't be god (cf. premise 2).

Answer 1

I Love you're logic, Though I see a fiew holes in you're statement.
Premisis two has a fallacy. You're Appeal to Common Practice. Which is
# X is a common action.
# Therefore X is correct/moral/justified/reasonable, etc.
If we were to say god was perfect, that would also me that everything he does is perfect. Remindes me of a quote from william James "Compared to what we ought to be, we are half awake. "

email me, i love to debate. [e-mail]

Answer 2

Hey great discussion!!

I'm going to reply point by point.

Premise 1: We as humans cannot prove beyond doubt that god does or does not exist.

Got to agree with you on #1. Nope, there's no "proof", only faith.

Premise 2: If god exists, it is perfect (because that is what defines it as god and makes it worth worshipping).

Yep, still agreeing with you on #2 at this point. Or perfection as far as we in our limited human perception can define it, at any rate.

Premise 3: It must be true that only god is perfect, because if anything else were perfect, it'd be equal to god, and then god would have no real value.

Here's where I have to respectfully take exception. If we were created and thus EVERYTHING was created by a perfect god, how can a perfect being create imperfection?? That does not make sense to me. I feel that our persective on the true nature of reality and perfection is severely limited in physical form (human) and that we are not necessarily privy to the broader, bigger picture. I don't think that we ever will be until we continue on the journey of life once we are freed of the physical human form and resume life as non-physical (spiritual) entities, as we are, in this form, merely fractions or fragments of our total being.

Having said this, "god" still has value as the whole of which we are a part, which is the ultimate perfection.

Conclusion: It does not make sense to follow religion because what we'd learn and how we'd learn it is fundamentally flawed, supposing that god even exists.

I've got to agree with you on this point as well. I feel that organized religion is the most divisive of vehicles to humanity and stresses our differences rather than our connection to each other and to the whole or the "god" of our creation.

These are my thoughts on the matter. Whether or not they are "intelligent" are subject to opinion.

Love, light and blessings to you! :)

Answer 3

Um, religion and "spirituality" doesn't center around God, or a god, as a whole. Some religions revere several, some not at all.

>>It does not make sense to follow religion because what we'd learn and how we'd learn it is fundamentally flawed, supposing that god even exists.<<

First, you would have to prove what exactly is fundamentally flawed and how, then if it is particularly flawed in the human scope.

See, the problem with your statement is that first, you're establishing that people of religion, and by extension spirituality, are probably naive in their beliefs. Now go and tell that to any crowd of Christians or Muslims or Daoists in their respective enclaves. Second, why not extend that sort of reasoning in to something else that is taken for granted, such as love...why not believe in something just as nonmaterial as religion?

Answer 4

To follow anything is to go along with the fundamental flaws in it, like those of organised religion. However if you choose to be apart of something then you are not following but are being guided, and have the choice to stop being guided at anytime if it does not comply with what you understand of what is true.

I believe that it was Buddha that said,
"Believe nothing, no matter where you hear it or who has said it, even if I have said it unless it fits in with your understanding and your intelligence."

So if god does exist and he is to be worshipped because he is perfect, it is up to you to find a way to worship him that fits in with your understanding of how he expects you to worship him. If that is to become a part of (but not follow along like a lamb to slaughter) an organised religion, then so be it.

Hope this helps.

Answer 5

You don't have to be flawless or sinless to worship the perfect and all knowing God. The Christian faith is based on Jesus Christ death as a Ransom so that anybody who is sincere and will give all he can(not his money) but his soul ,energy,obedience,and of course most of all Love has the oppurtunity to live forever. In other words Christ who is God's only begotten Son has undone what Satan and Adam did in the Garden of Eden.
We don't deserve this . It is that the God of the bible if you read it and study it you will find he wants very much to extend this opputunity to you. His Love is boundless. Love ,Wisdom,Justice and Power. Power beyond our understanding. For if it is true that E=MC2 then to be able to supply enough enough energy to create a Universe that contains billions of Galaxies each with billions of Stars with some have planets orbiting them as well a comets etc...We can't even begin to fathom that kind of energy not to speak of also the 100,000,000 of Angelic creatures of a Spiritual form.
The name that is in the bible more than any other name(Hebrew and Aramaic) scriptures is the 4 letter Tetregrammaton which in engish is YHWH or JHVH. It occurs 7000 times in the old testament and is rendered either Yahweh or Jehovah. Of course they have removed the name in most modern translations as God or LORD. Jesus prayed for his fathers name to be sanctified. How can we keep something holy that we don't even know .?
It is true organized religon has failed miserably to bring man close to Jehovah. Nevertheless we need religon that is based on the bibles principles. Jesus said a rotten tree can not produce fine fruit. So for an organized group of Christians to be successfull in obtaining God's wonderful New World Paradise would have to be following in the footsteps of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
It's late for me tonight and I am quite sleepy so if there is a rebuttal to what I am proposing I will look up information both in bible and other sources. I hate debating contests. I gain nothing if you believe the same as we do except I care about you. I will supply a few scriptures or chapters in the bible to help any of you who are interested.

Best wishes
Damien

Answer 6

sorry...but as you premises are inherently faulty, whatever conclusion you would have stated would have been faulty...

a specious basis gives (at best) specious results
as far as your logical development towards your conclusion...
it isn't
as far as your conclusion as a logical result of your premises
it isn't

Try reading Anderson's " A history of god", all of James Campbell's "faces of god" series, Frazer's "golden bough"...just for starters...
while it is patently obvious...and has been for thousands of years..that logic and religion are two different aspects of humanity...it is still a presumptuous, limited, and sophomoric view to denigrate much less deny that humanity has an inherent need for a spiritual aspect for existence...this may or may not include a "godhead" but the desire/necessity for some spiritual satisfaction is human, all too human...
to be unaware of this aspect of humanity bespeaks of a simplistic understanding of the human condition

expand your definition of a godhead to include humanity "in toto" , or the sum total of the powers of the universe, or the "spark" self awareness and independent thought in every one.or any one of a plethora of views of what a godhead could be....and would you have the same conclusion???

loose the grade school/sunday school/pious platitudes about what...if anything...a godhead is...

as to the "provided that it's intelligent"....if and when your ability to ask a meaning question improves, if and when your questions are "intelligent" enough to answer properly, if and when your thoughts express a greater understanding and intelligence...

maybe then some of us would be "interested in what you have to say"....ahhh....but by then, we would have increased our depth of understanding/our philosophical and theological knowledge/our spiritual and intellectual thoughts....

moral: don't prejudge with your "tag" line....after all...YOU are the one asking for our input....

Answer 7

your premises are all very good but kiddo trust me trying to apply logic to matters of faith is like trying to hammer a string of wet spaghetti through a battleship hull using a hammer made out of twinkies.

youll get nowhere fast. Religion was allways meant to guide mankind. it was (according to myth) laid down by god as a means to provide focus for mans faith. with out the focus a persons belief in the allmighty could be twisted into something unwholesome or evil.

The problem with religion is that it is dogma that has been taken by man and there fore "interpreted" by mans desires. we were given free will(againa ccording to myth)by god in order that we could make a choice, wether to believe or not to believe.

we alone among all living things on this planet have that choice. and its what makes us special.

so your conclusion while based on sound reasoning is flawed in the sence that religion is flawed. for if you consider the basic flaw of humanity itself. you must take into account its inherant weakness, and conversely its greatest strength. that ability to choose. to believe or not to believe. to hold onto faith or put its trust in dogma.

religion is flawed in that it is no more perfect then the men and women that practice it. just as logic is no more perfect then those who argue it.

in the end hun all we trully have is our faith. and in the end thats enough for me.=^_^=

Answer 8

All religions have been mad up by man. If you were to be born alone and lived your life on a desert island you would not be indoctrinated and you would make your own mind up about god. Thats assuming you thought about a god. or maybe you would think you were god!

Answer 9

What is a religon,I don't think it ever existed.We all are children of same Father so how can we break His love.I feel the breate we breathe is the same and is provided by Him only.\Atleast this is what I have concluded from my thoughts

Answer 10

do u have a brain?if so why do u believe that you have one?i can say that u dont have one!! or even you yourself can prove that bcoz you havent seen it or touched it...u just know its there coz something in your body helps you think,speak,feel etc...u believe its there thats all...its the same with faith and god...u just know its there neither u can prove it wrong or right.