Separation of church and state ... factual only please.?

Question

I'm in a running debate with someone regarding religions place in society, and specifically in terms of trying to impact laws. Being Canadian, I'm not very familiar with the US when it comes to how the seperation of church and state applies. The person I'm debating claims it was in a letter from from one founding father to another ... I'm almost positive there was more to it than that?

Can someone knowledgable in this give me some background information please, or a quick rundown at least? I like to know what I'm talking about before I continue the conversation.

Thank you :)

Answer 1

The first answer is right. Let me add that one reason that church and state should never mix is the diversity of religion in America. Whose religious doctrine would we base our laws on? We are primarily Christian, yet there are differences even in the various sects of christianity. And then we have all the other religions, as well. Our constitution granted us freedom of religion, but I believe that also means freedom from religion.......that we shouldn't have the views of any one religion forced upon us through law according to their doctrine.

Answer 2

The idea of separation of church and state was to keep the church out of government and the government out of church. It's easy to grasp the full meaning by looking at the 55 signers life styles. Most could be considered religious men. There was a balance. It had to do with crooked preachers directing government affairs or crooked politicians controlling church affairs. I believe the Declaration of Independence was written by men that knew how things can get lop sided and wanted to write a legal document to provide a battle ground to achieve balance, freedom and liberty without infringing on others....

Answer 3

Some great answers here and their sharing of history is true and I hope it helps you. true this statement is not in the constitution. But is implyed and it was a very important point our forefathers were trying to convey that the government should not like England mandate a religious institution upon the people. However there are some today that try to use this statement to mean that it is wrong or out of line for any politician to outwardly profess his or hers belief in Christianity. And this is not what our forefathers meant at all. In fact quite the opposite was practiced in the beginning of our government. One of the assets a man had when running for an office back then was that he openly went to the church of his choice and did not hide his belief in Christ and his teachings. Still today in Washington DC there are many places that have carvings of moses and the Ten Commandments and other things like this. And every session of congress still to this day is started with a prayer. Yet there are those who fight every day to have this prayer and those works of art depicting things having to do with christ and his teachings removed because they are against the constitution under their misinterpretation of the meaning of separation of church and state.

Answer 4

Probably the most misunderstood part of our Constitution. The separation of church and state prohibits the Federal Government from establishing a state religion. Such as, if you are an American citizen you MUST be Roman Catholic or you will be prosecuted. The statue says nothing about prayer in schools, a judge having the 10 commandments on his wall,nativity scenes in public parks, etc. Our Founders would be aghast at what has been done under this misinterpretation.

Answer 5

The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, quoting the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, he writes: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."[2] Despite his use of the phrase, the Library of Congress claims that other evidence shows Jefferson had no objection to "symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government". Rather, the claim is that by upholding "separation of church and state", he objected to a state supported church, as is practiced by Britain with its official recognition of the Church of England.[3]

Another early user of the term was James Madison, the principal drafter of the United States Bill of Rights, who often wrote of "total separation of the church from the state" (1819 letter to Robert Walsh). "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States," Madison wrote, and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States" (1811 letter to Baptist Churches). This attitude is further reflected in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, which was originally authored by Thomas Jefferson, but championed by Madison. The Declaration guarantees that no one may be compelled to finance any religion or denomination.

Answer 6

There is nothing in the United States Constitution that refers to separation of church and state. However, there is something to be said in regard to freedom of religion. The only people promoting separation of church and state are Satanists.

Answer 7

Not from one founding father to another but from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist's. The Baptist's were concerned because their religious freedoms were assigned by the legislature and were not considered an "inalienable right"

Answer 8

Hi ciniful thank you for your answer. Godzilla

Peace

Answer 9

letters and notes from Thomas Jefferson. But the First Amendment specifically prohibits setting up a state religion, or a religious state.
A couple of quick logical links, as in i don't have them on my computer.

The revolution was started over tax protests. The taxes were to pay what the British crown considered their debt to England arising from what in America is called the French and Indian War. It was a long and drawn out series of wars fought mostly over which church got to run the state.
Henry VIII of England had declared the Church of England to be separate from the Catholic Church, and the reigning monarch as the arbiter of the COE. This meant that Roman Catholics could be peers of the realm, but not the monarch. Also Henry had no surviving male heir. When he died, all Hell broke loose because there was no successor who was male and protestant. By the time America was being settled after Elizabeth 1st, the Virgin Queen died, childless of course, King James 1st of England took the throne, He was also king of Scotland, and not the first James in that line. He was protestant. Mark these names, they come into the story real soon. Other contenders for the throne included Charles, also of Scotland, but catholic, Mary of Scotland and also catholic. Also a complicated web of people who had claims, cousins in France, Spain, Austria, and finally Hanover, a kingdom in what is now Germany.
Between the royals executing each other and siccing their armies against each other for the better part of two centuries, and an ongoing contradiction in terms "Holy War" between protestants and catholics across Europe, the American Colonies were divided up into religious camps, now remember those names. Mary. Maryland. The colony was Catholic, founded by Lord Baltimore, has a city named after him, right? Easy so far. Virginia named for Elizabeth the Virgin Queen, and Jamestown named for James 1st, who by no coincidence was the person who commissioned and financed the King James Bible. Straight so far? Carolina, one colony and named after Charles. Largest city Charleston. Pennsylvania named for and founded by William Penn, a Society of Friends religious exile. Massachussetts settled by originally Pilgrims escaping king James. Also a rival fundamentalist group the Puritans. With me so far? New York New Hampshire named for and settled by the families and servants and such of two failed attempts at securing the Succession , New Jersey named for the Isle of Jersey, also religious significance. Georgia named for King George 1st, of Hanover Germany who ascended the throne only because he was the oldest surviving male closest in lineage and also protestant. Georgia had been a penal colony, Irish and Scots catholics sent into permanent exile for other wars related to both the succession and religion. Still with me? You will probably have to print this out.
Mainly you should remember that the colonies were not at peace with each other.
George 1st was probably not the father of George 2nd, because he __ahem__ didn't like girls. However, the Hanover line has gone on unchecked until the present day. During the reigns of the Three Georges the general war in Europe heated up on the American side as well, what is now Canada was claimed by the French, and settled by them as well. This was not the first nor the final round in the war between France and England. A lot of what are referred to as the Founding Fathers, Washington, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, John Q Adams weren't confessing members of either COE or Roman Catholic but Freemasons and Deists.

To the Constitutional issues, there was already a particularly bloody uprising against the US government, barely put down by the Army.
The framers of the constitution, and in particular Jefferson, knew damned well they weren't going to unite all these religious fringe groups under one State Approved Church. Thus there is the separation of church and state. That the doctrine isn't spelled out specifically in the constitution doesn't matter. Church and State were held separate so the various states could be well... United.

An interesting side story is about the flag. The stars and stripes is our flag today precisely because it isn't a religious symbol. One of the first US flags is the Southern Cross Flag. It takes two of the four crosses from the British flag, the Union Jack. Which is a religious symbol. The Southern Cross flag is also known as the Rebel Flag.
The thirteen stars in the middle cross, represent a constellation which can be seen as far north as Florida. The blue cross on which the stars are displayed is the cross of St Andrew, patron saint of Scotland. This is neatly laid into the white cross, X shaped, the cross of St Patrick and guess which irish ethnic irish group has him for a patron...
On a background of red representing a sea of blood. Very celtic concept. Also a deliberate thumbing-of-the-nose at the Union Jack because the colors are reversed. In the Union Jack there are two + shaped crosses laid over the Irish and Scots crosses. The cross of St Bartholomew of Wales with St Georges cross resting over the other three. Large amount of English arrogance displayed there.
A second reason the Southern Cross was not the official flag of the US was the British had Irish and Scots regiments fighting for them. Their regimental flags could be easily mistaken for the Southern Cross in the black powder smoke. This information I got during the American Bicentennial 30 years ago. The government had a collection of official flags up for sale along with a neat little book for free. which was more in my price range. explaining the significance of these flags.

Then in the American Civil War <--another contradiction in terms.
The exact opposite actions for the same reasons. The Confederate flag was officially the Stars and Bars, appeared much like the Stars and stripes, especially since they were still using black powder guns and could barely see anything. So to avoid battlefield confusion, the Confederates unofficially adopted the Southern Cross as a battle flag.
Also the Revolution was still within living memory. And the cross flag represented the heritage most associated with the South.

And a result of that war was the adoption of the Pledge of Allegiance, another red hot Church and State issue.

The pledge to the flag was written by a Unitarian minister, and most mainstream Christian denominations have a lot of really nasty ugly things to say about Unitarians. The minister's name was Francis Bellamy, and he was an associate and student of Henry Ward Beecher and his daughter Harriet Beecher-Stow. Author of Uncle Tom's Cabin. And prime instigators in the Civil War.
The Pledge to the Flag was an adaptation of the oath of loyalty Confederate soldiers were forced to recite before being allowed citizenship in the US. Francis Bellamy was also a member and officer of the Christian Socialist Union. His version of the pledge did not have the Under God part in it. Those two words were added just before World War 2 in a failed attempt to appease Christians and Jews who follow the law about not swearing oaths to a graven image.
Now if that ain't enough to stir controversy with your friend,
heeeheeeheeee

And the documents by Jefferson include rules for public schools, one of his jobs before he became president was overseeing them.
He prohibited church officials from visiting and evangelizing in the schools. Remember he was in Virginia. Right across the river from Maryland, the Catholic colony. And the two states have periodically shot more than just harsh words at each other.

Ask your friend what rituals of which church he would have government entities like schools perform every day. If he is protestant ask him if the kids should say the Rosary before class, pray to the Virgin Mary and be communicants in the Catholic church. Make him decide exactly which church runs the state, make him do it immediately. That is a quick way of pointing out the folly of such debate.