Cryonics...What about Ice Damage?

Question

I have heard of arctic frogs surviving being frozen soild, Frozen embrios growing up as healthy humans, and Cryo protectants developed by the Cryonics industry that allow hospitals to preserve organ donations. I have heard of a young girl who survived being under water for over an hour in icy lake water and being revived with no brain damage.....I understand that ice crystalization in tissue happens under specific conditions but why do Cryonics detractors still falsely misapply this to all situations in the face of everyday evidance? If Cryonics is right about this then what else are they right about??? Perhaps the issue requires deeper examination.....any other thoughts on the issue?

Answer 1

Ice damages tissues in two ways.

First, it pokes holes in cell walls when sharp and pointy ice crystals form in the spaces between cells.

Second, all the water migrates into the ice crystals, and concentrates all the bad stuff inside the cell.

There are several strategies to fight this. The first strategy "anti-freeze" is used by the frogs. They make a huge amount of a sugar, glucose. The glucose, (insert long discussion of osmosis here) draws all the water into the cells.

No water between the cells means no intracellular ice damage.

The sugar in the frog cells also invokes a second anti-ice technique by preventing "Nucleation", the forming of little baby ice Crystals. Within the cell, the sugar acts as a matrix or lattice that keeps the ice crystals small, non-destructive, and (relatively) harmless.

End result, the frog survives. The arctic frogs don't freeze solid, their hearts have to stay thawed. A water bear (microscopic) can freeze solid.... all the way to liquid nitrogen temperatures.


Answering one of the other posters, "Who would want to die twice?" Good question. It really is a question of are you really dead? My brother died several times right after he was born. His heart stopped, he wasn't breathing, he was dead. With Intubation and chest compressions, they brought him back.

He died again when he was about 6, drowned in a pool. Again, they brought him back.

Technically, he has been "dead" at least 3 times. Personally, I am very happy they brought him back. If they didn't, then who would have taught me to play pool?

Cryonics is, at it's core, a gamble that people aren't irreversibly completely dead until the information and experiences stored in their brains is destroyed. At the end of the day, our experiences are what make us who we are. Science we have right now, today, indicates that this "information and experience" death doesn't occur for several hours after "heart stopped" death, and can be delayed for up to a day by non-freezing cooling.... People can be cold and dead for 8 hours or more and come back normally. That's the "state of the art" in heart surgery in Russia. More science indicates the damage caused by freezing doesn't cause this "information" death. That's where cryonics is today. We know we can prevent this "information" death through freezing, and we hope that some day, someone will be able to fix the damage experienced in the preservation process.

Answer 2

Let me list what I know about Cyronics and cryopreservants.

Cryonics is the practice of cryopreservating animals either naturally or unnaturally. Naturally means that the organism itself is able to "antifreeze" itself in adversely cold weather. While unnaturally requires an aid such as an antifreeze agent such as DMSO.

Cryopreservation completely inhibits any Biological activities in the body to pause the age growth. With the cease, the body would not grow in age and the cells will remain at that age while under cryopreservation.

I am not sure what are the evidence that you have gotten but all I can say is that the likeliness of someone reviving after cryopreservation without ANY damage is very very low. I do believe that your story of the girl but it is rather unlikely. During cryopreservation, any form of ice crystal would destroy the cell as the pressure within the cell and outside the cell would have been toppled. The crystals can also lyse the cell by piercing it through. Without any form of cryprotectant, cryonics would be a total failure.

In my opinion, if you cryopreserved something well either be quick freeze or slow freeze with LOTS of skills, there should be no ice forming. No ice means that there is lesser damage. However, we know that it is really reallly difficult for humans to mimic this act.

Answer 3

Some animals can produce a natural form of antifreeze that prevents their cells from being damaged - up to a point. I don't know what the cryonics companies do for their suckers, er, customers, but I doubt very much if any of their deceased will ever be revivable.

Answer 4

My question about cryonics is why why would anyone want to die twice? No one is getting out alive, so why freeze your body, with a slight chance of being revived, to live and die yet again! It just prolongs the absolute inevitable, DEATH! We are born, pay taxes and die, that is just how it goes! The Grim Reaper will knock at everyone's door at some time, no point in hiding, he will still find you!