What do yo think about the more strict seperation of churh and state in countries like France?

Question

In France religous symbols can't even be worn in public schools, and other areas i.e. crosses, hijab, etc. This in my opinion is taking it to far.

I saw on a NY Times Doc. French disliking the fact that religon was not totally seperated in our govt. for example "In god we trust" on the money, and the president being sworn in on a Bible. I can see their point. But banning religous symbols are ridiculous. A person has a right to express themselves however they want , and a truely mature person/culture would be able to accept the differences in others instead of being offended by them.

Before the French or any other Europeans start blasting our country, How about they clean up the mess in theirs.

First , kids are only as intolerante as they are taught to be. In school of course some muslims might be taunted for wearing hijab. But they are just as likely to be ridiculed for not wearing the right fashion, or having the latest of whatever kids want.

And my comments are not directed just toward France, it is also directed to other european countries like Germany, Belgium, and others who have banned hijab.

Not everyone who wears Hijab is forced to , and if they are being forced they need to be protected.

A ban on religous symbols in school or anywhere is going to do nothing to help anyone. They still have to go home after school to there neighborhoods, and this ban is going to increase home schooling or private schooling for many not just muslims.

So protection is a bogus reason in the end for this. It is just a lack of tolerance.

Answer 1

The mess in France is 10 million muslims and growing. France needs it's ways because of this.

Answer 2

Sorry, but you're exaggerating a bit...

Religious symbols are banned in France only in public schools (not in universities) and in administration, where neutrality is supposed to be the rule, be it political or religious.
But you can wear a hijab, a cross, a kippa and whatever you want in the streets. Religion is considered in France to be a private matter.

To be more precise, only "too big" symbols are forbidden in schools, cause it is considered as proselytism. You can wear a small cross, a small jewish or islamic symbol, muslim girls can wear a headscarf as long as it looks like a "bandana"...

As you said "a truely mature person/culture would be able to accept the differences"... It's true, but in school, you don't have "mature persons", but children. And there has been cases where religion was a cause of troubles in classrooms (pupils refusing to hear about the Hebrews, for example).

Just Don't forget :
- France has both the biggest Jewish and Muslim communities in Europe
- France suffered from internal religious wars (Protestants and Catholics, St Barthelemy massacres...) and French people fought a lot against the Catholic clergy, that had a long oppressive power and was allied with the monarchy.
- French Revolution is inspired by "free thinkers", that were persecuted by the Clergy.
- France is now largely "dechristianized" (we have a high rate of ppl having no religion), and contrary to Italy, the church has no more political power. But it took a long long long time, many fights... The "free, obligatory, and secular" school was built against the Church. The Republic was built against the Church. And some Islamic people were suddenly contesting this hardly gained "peace" (I said "some", a majority of French Muslims accepted the law since it's conform with French tradition with religion and not too restrictive). A law was really the only solution in short term. The "anti" were mostly extreme left, and islamic traditionalists.

And yes, we don't understand
- "In god we trust" (a sentence that doesn't take into account atheists, buddhists or polytheists...)
- the swear on the Bible by the president, the power of evangelical churches
- the fact that according to a 1999 poll, 50 % of U.S. people would never give their vote to someone if they learn he/she is an atheist
-why in the elections, the religion of candidates was mentionned, cause we consider it has really (or should have) no importance at all in politics.
- a former President of you (G. Bush "Sr") can say "I don’t believe that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God" (which is far more scandalous in my eyes than the law you're talking about).

We have a different political and social tradition, like it or not. There is positive and negative everywhere, in the U.S. or in France.

And France or a European country blasting your country... Lol, we're not as anti-American as you seem to think. We hate your president and neo-cons for sure, but U.S. people are always welcomed here.

P.S. : I forgot that many Muslim girls were not opposed (and even were in favor of it) cause they didn't want to wear the hijab but were under pressure of their family and community to wear it !
There is a wave of Islamic conservatism that appeared these last 10 years, that was almost inexistant before. And first victims are the girls. This law was an occasion for them to get rid of this pressure, at least at school, whereas not being too restrictive for those who wanted to keep the hijab.

P.S.2 : A hijab is not the same thing than wearing a fashion cloth, it's not as innocent. Being ridiculed by other kids because your clothes are out of fashion is not the same than having your roomates, families, brothers, and neighbours putting pressure on you by saying you're not a good Muslim girl if you don't wear the hijab or neighbours saying bad things on you just because you're talking to a man !
Moreover, in this case, hijab has been promoted as an ideological symbol, a way for some Muslim conservatives to show their importance, and give echo to political revendications - which were clearly against French tradition.

Answer 3

The separation of religion and state is typical for Europe because of history. For us everyone is free to believe what he wants in private but he may not impose his religion to others.
Do you know that in some regios of Brussels where a lot of Muslims live, the muslim girls must wear hijab, otherwise they have big troubles with young fanatics ? Where is there the free choice of children ?
I think that neutrality is better for everyone.

Answer 4

France is like a Rat trapped in its own trap.They don't want the Muslims to create any Political Trouble through Religious Decree "FATWA"
So they have to invent stupid Laws like Dress codes to save their "Aaaassss".The day is not far that they will make laws for morality .

Answer 5

the ideology of separation of church and state has become so spun. The entire premise is ones interpretation to another, the constitution DOES NOT declare a SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, when we start following the practices of France we are in deep trouble.

I challenge anyone to show me where in the constitution, where is refers to a separation of church and state.... IT DOESN'T.

Answer 6

Yes but the christians express themselves by protesting at funerals of veterans, kidnapping girls (Elizabeth Smart) and so on - shouldn't that be stopped?