Juries in UK rape trials are less likely to convict a defendant if the victim was drinking - Agree?

Question

When I was young I found women very confusing in that they would say yes, then change their minds, I think drink plays a large part in adding to the mixed messages some men find themselves dealing with. As the father of both a son and daughter I know how hard it is to keep kids on the straight an narrow. Some of the sights I see of young women out on the town are a recipe for their downfall. What do you think

Answer 1

In some cases they will.

But only if the alleged victim had drunk a lot

Answer 2

I would have to agree with you. some women go out on the town, scantilly clad and expect guys not to ogle at them. drink does play a huge part in influencing the womans behaviour as well as the way she carries herself. another thing to consider is also the signals she sends out when she drinks. she will probably be more flirty and maybe lose alot of her inhibitions. the key to not giving out the wrong message is to have a bit of control. having said this, being drunk and trying to have control is very difficult.

the men on the other hand see a pretty drunk girl and see it as an opportunity to make a new friend and maybe "pull". again, men are equal culprits in this as they dont know when to stop either.

now i'm not saying its a womans fault if she gets raped, but i think her actions and the way she carried herself play a big part. if her drunken wild antics were seen to draw that type of attention then it can be argued that maybe if she wasn't drinking she wouldnt have gotten herself in such a situation. this is the question to which there is no definitive answer.

bottom line, i do think that women themselves are responsible for keeping themselves out of harms way but the men play an equally important part in the act. some guys just dont know that no means no. just because the woman seems like she's up for it when she says no she most likely isnt. she doesnt say no just for fun (as a defendant has argued in a rape case before).

plus the mixed messages sometimes anger the guys more which could lead to more serious consequences for the women...

in a court room, the defnece will portray the victim to be a liar... they will paint a horrible picture of the victim. i mean u could be the greatest woman int he world and i'm pretty sure the defence would tear u apart because u got drunk and supposedly invited sex. the decision of the jury is never its own. ppl are so easliy influenced by what the smarmy lawyer/barrister tells them that they are easily sucked into believing that the woman was at fault. in the court room the defence will play phsychological games with the members of the jury and this is bound to affect their view.
we just have to have faith that when there is a case where the woman didnt invite the attention from her rapist even if she was drinking, that her character will withstand the comments that the defence makes. it all lies with the jury.

you do have to remember that it is possible for men to get raped now as well by other men. this isnt heard of as much but there have been cases where drink hasnt even been involved... how do you feel about that?


good question by the way!

Answer 3

This was being discussed this morning on Radio 4 - and I find the debate hugely interesting, especially as recently a judge ruled that 'drunk consent is still consent'.

I find that most feminist groups take the view that men are the wrongdoers in all situations where sex is concerned. I certainly don't dispute that if a sober guy sleeps with a very drunk women with the view to taking advantage of her in her drunken state, then that is rape.

What I do object to is campaigners crying 'rape' whenever a very drunk guy sleeps with a very drunk girl and that girl wouldn't have consented had she been sober.

I think the rape/sobriety question should be framed in legal terms as follows:

1) Was the women in full possession of her decision-making abilities?

2) If not, if the woman was drunk, would she have consented to sex had she been sober?

3) If not, did the male subjectively realise that the women would not have consented had she been sober?

4) If yes to (3), then it is rape. If 'no', then it's not.

I think the argument that 'young women bring it on themselves' is not a valid one and I am tired that those supporting a strengthening of the rape law also cite men using this argument as a reason for their case. MOST critics of the rape issue aren't using this argument - instead, men are saying that if a guy is hideously drunk and his sexual partner is hideously drunk, why should she be able to claim rape in the morning when she regrets what she has done?

Rape is a vile, hideous and disgusting crime and I would support stronger sentences for those convicted, but I feel really bad for guys are accused of rape just because two drunk people had sex. If you go to most universities across the UK you will see people who get absolutely wasted on an unprecented level on a week-in, week-out basis and sexual promiscuity is common (I am cautious not to say 'rife'). It is a sign of the times (and I'm not making any moral comments as to whether it is a good or bad thing) that many young people sleep around - and I don't think it's always fair that men are presumed in 100% of cases to be at fault.

p.s. NO means NO - but that's not the question, which is, why should a DRUNKEN YES mean NO? I think that a drunken yes should mean yes, only when the guy subjectively (when drunk) believes that woman was genuinely consenting. If he's sober enough to realise she's not, then it's rape.

Answer 4

Good question.

Having seen the way girls act when under the influence and how much they drink these days it easy to see why rape cases are on the increase. Its hard to answer this without sounding as if you are coming down on one side. On one hand there are perverts out there using rohypnol and other substances to get a girl subdued. On the other girls these days seem to want to follow the boys into getting so drunk that they collapse unconscious.

Ive lost count of the amount of times ive carried female work colleagues home simply because I dont want anyhthing to happen to them. There are predators out there but it is in extremely small numbers, even so, i'd rather not take the risk.

Im 28 so, im young enough to know exactly what goes on but old enough to step back and see what is happening. My advice to you as a father is to give good advice and keep a close eye on them whilst still giving them a relatively free hand. Don't wrap them up in cotton wool or badger them too much because you'll end up alienating them into doing the things you wish they didn't.

More likely than not they will end up making the same mistakes you and I did and come out the other side just fine.

Answer 5

Not condoning any form of rape here..

But yes, drinking, and the behaviour afterwards, can lead to mixed messages. When you see the bindge drinking scenes on TV it can only add to a juries confusion.

Should people ever get so drunk in public that they have no clue what they are doing ? No

Should anyone ( man or woman ) ever force, coerse or even be firm or manipulative to get sex - No.

How can a jury decide what goes on between 2 drunk people in a room in the middle of the night ? Sometimes its imposible to tell.

So, in answer to your headline question. Yes, Jurys are less likely to confict if the victim was drinking. Not saying its right, this is just what i think happens.

Answer 6

it doesn't matter weather someone said yes or not if they start saying no and pushing you away its clear that they don't want it, but ultimately if the victim is not able to clearly remember what happened then it has to cast doubt on the case , allthough a number of law makers are suggesting that any and all sex between a sober person or at least a considerably less drunk person and a very drunk person should be considered to be rape as the drunk person is not in full controll of their facultys and therefore much like a child under the age of sixteen is not able to give consent, allthough there is a certain ammount of logic in this i don't agree with it, just seems to me that it would take alot of the fun out of going out.

by the way good answer puffy.

Answer 7

i don't think the fact a woman is drunk makes it acceptable to rape her... infact i find the notion appalling. men should be taught to respect women no matter what their state or signals being given out... and especially not to sleep with women who are drunk! men should be responsible and that should be enforced by the law. what every man should know is that if a woman gives out mixed signals no matter her state of mind... to stay well clear... that woman is trouble. to take advantage of her physically is deplorable and unacceptable.
however, women who are drunk need to take responsibility too. so whilst a court should recognise that rape is WRONG not matter what the circumstances and sentence accordingly, in the instances where the woman was drunk, the woman must be held in some way accountable for that situation ie. by paying court costs.
bottom line, control is needed on both sides...both are responsible, however, that doesn't make it acceptable in anyway and something needs to be done about it!
a report like this however has jsut given the green light to all men... especially to worst kind that ALL drunk women are a target and they can get away with it!

Answer 8

Having been on a jury in a rape case, I can honestly say that you cannot make any generalisations at all - it all comes down to the (many) facts of each individual case.

However, I do think it is important that the victim is definite that they they said no, clearly and many times. Being drunk is not going to help this. And yes, those silly girls out on the town that are falling down drunk are not considering any one of the many possible (nasty) consequences of their actions - attack, falling under traffic, falling off anything of height, etc, etc. All you can do is educate your kids as best you can.

Answer 9

If you get mixed messages you control the hormones and say no. Common sense. If you give mixed messages it's probably cause you were never thaught common sense in the first place. Not a lot of men or women have it these days and even less so when they're drunk. And kids will more or less follow the example of their parents. So to speak.

Answer 10

I am afraid some women, a bit worse for drink, like to flirt and jump into bed and its only when they sober up and regret what they have done that they shout "rape".
That isn't rape unless the man has intentionally taken advantage of the woman's condition.

Answer 11

I think the jury in each and every case has been briefed on the finer points of law, and makes a decision based on those facts which the rest of us don't have access to, and therefore making any generalization about juries in any country is wrong.