Athiests, what is your claim?

Question

I mean, how can you claim that this Universe just put itself together. Let's not get into how everything got to be today, but how else would everything come to be in the first place? Actually answer the question, don't just make some inflammatory comment.

Answer 1

OK there are two possibilities:
1. Universe always was, and always will be -- there is no need to create it.
OR
2. Universe was made by god, but GOD always was, and always will be.

As you can see both theories requires something to exist forever.
Now we apply Occam's razor[1] -- and pick the possibility that does not created needless entities -- Thus I prefer possibility #1 unless some evidence comes up that supports #2 but not #1(such evidence I am yet to see).

Answer 2

You ask a good question.

First though, you should recognize that most atheists do not really "claim" anything. Most are like me and have determined that there is no evidence of, or sound argument for, the existence of gods, so why jump to an irrational conclusion that gods exist? This is not a "claim" or proposal, it is the denial or lack of one. If you are a theist, you are claiming that there is/are a god(s), and to defend your claim you should be prepared to explain why you believe this in the absence of any obvious evidence. The atheist is the skeptical opposition in this debate - he is not defending any position.

Now, as to how the universe came to be... this is a well-known question that serves as the basis of one of the standard, but flawed, arguments for the existence of god, known as the "first cause" or "cosmological argument". This argument basically says that god must exist because the universe must have a beginning and god must have created it or somehow caused it to exist.

The argument is unsound. To begin, try to consider the fact that it is not necessary to assume that there even is a first cause. This can be difficult, so give it some time and try to think about it in different ways. It might help to consider the infinite paradox of simply continuing to ask for the earlier cause. So if god is your answer to the first cause question, then what created god? You can continue asking this question forever, which just shows that there really cannot be such a thing as a first cause.

The human brain's need for closure and expectation of action-reaction or cause-effect physical behavior is a result of our evolution here on earth, where such thinking works very well for animals (including us). However, when we start to contemplate difficult questions like this, beyond our sensory world, our brains have great difficulty. Another example of this is our difficulty to even conceive of the possibility of infinity. It is entirely possible that some kind of universe has existed forever, something before the "big bang", and then something before that, ... etc.

Nevertheless, if you want to assume that there has to be some kind of first cause, there is still no reason that you should assume that this cause was a god, unless you have a very simplistic definition of god (that god is simply the first cause of the universe and nothing more).

The fact that there is no provable explanation of a first cause (as yet) should not lead you to jump to a conclusion of god. Nevertheless, that is what man has done for as long as we can tell. God or gods have always been accepted explantions for things that we cannot otherwise explain. But then, once we learn to explain things in terms of science and nature, we have simply adjusted (reduced) our conception of gods accordingly. The Gods keep back-pedaling as science advances.

That science has not answered the first cause question, should not lead us to god(s). There are endless other possibilities, only limited by our imagination. For example, maybe I will start a theory that the first cause of the universe was a freak explosion caused by a cow with extreme gas problems in a different universe. My theory is just as plausible (and provable) as any theory that a god or gods were the first cause.

Many (most?) atheists, like me, have thought through the standard arguments for the existence of gods, while most religious people are not familiar with the arguments. If you consider them objectively, you will see that no sound argument for god(s) has even been proposed. This can be a life-defining moment if you are currently a theist. At first it can be shocking and deeply depressing. Over time, however, it can become freeing and uplifting as you begin to understand the world in a new clearer light. You come to appreciate and be content in accepting that our life here is all we have, and all that we need to enjoy ourselves.

I hope that is helpful to you.

Answer 3

How do you explain how God came to be? No matter how religion tries to fill in the gaps of how everything got started, you really can't explain it either. That is without saying that you have to have faith. Which isn't an answer. If you try and reason that the bible is the the infallible word of God you will (if you really look objectively) find many discrepancies, and contradictions. Religions, for centuries have tried to explain the natural world, and people believed it - until there was irrefutable proof supporting science. The church has persecuted many scientists because they proved that God didn't necessarily cause these things to happen.
I was a very devout christian for a very long time. I just never could really justify everything that Christians said, and I definitely had many problems with the bible not making any sense. I finally decided to start searching for myself and found the answers I was looking for in science. That is why I now consider myself an atheist. It wasn't easy to let go of all of the indoctrination I had been subjected to my whole life. It's taken about 7 years for me to come to these conclusions. I really feel I've found the truth I've been looking for, and have really never felt more at peace.

Answer 4

To tell the truth, I don't know how the universe came to be, or how come it is ordered as it is. However just because I don't know does not mean that it must therefore have been done by some supernatural power.

David Hume has an excellent point about this argument. quite simply even if we were to agree that the universe is designed by a deity (I'm not saying it is, I'm just making an assumption for this particular argument) it does not tell us anything about the deity. It could be the first botched attempt of a child deity discarded in shame at the mess that was made of it or the last attempt of an old and senile deity. (Again I'm not saying it is, I'm just making a point)

(The way I see Atheism is as the freedom to say I don't know. The reason I call myself atheist is that the idea of personal God seems to be contradicted by the evidence available to me, and an impersonal God is irrelevant.)

Answer 5

I would consider myself a scientific atheist with strong leanings to the ethics of Buddhism (which are by the way nearly the same as in christian faith).

With science and ongoing discovery we are able to describe more and more exactly the way reality is build and part of the scientific method is that theories can be proven by experiment if they are true or false. With the discoveries we are close to describe the "big bang" close to 1/100 of a second. With that knowledge of quantum physics they are able to create additional, not in nature existing molecules. With the knowledge of electromagnetic waves we are able to build cell phones, television. With the knowledge of Psychology we are able to treat mental diseases. With the knowledge of medicin we are able to treat other diseases. With the knowledge of bacteria we are able to treat infections. Proof - Proof - Proof ..... . Physics came to the conclusion that there is dark energy and dark materie in our universe (by reasoning and conclusion): proven some weeks ago by observing a star system. (Dark energy only means that it does not directly interact with our existing materiel or in a such low way that we were not able to discover it yet, but we did).

But science is not a "truth": a serious scientist will tell you that the description we have today is only proven correct as long as not proven otherwise. For some hundred years Newton was considered to have discovered the basics of physics and then came Einstein, the understanding of chemistry and and and ....

Scientist are not able to explain why it is as it is.

But religion also does not. By creating a "God" or several "Gods" you just define that there is a reason, a basis of all what exists.

So: where did God come from ? What is it ? Where is it ? Where did it start ? What is the last meaning ? When and where will it end ?

God is a question of believe and faith which every human being has to decide for himself, there is no scientific proof but there is also no "non-scientific" proof.

Answer 6

When has this kind of confrontation ever converted a single person from one side to the other? Your question, like so many others, implies that those who do not believe the way you do are somehow stupid, or ignorant of the true facts of which you have a grasp.
I'll not go on a long diatribe of how inconsistent this attitude is with Christianity to start with, but don't you see how unproductive this is? How can you expect to convert another person to your side if you're not first willing to listen to that person and what they have to say, and why they believe the way they do. By setting yourself up as their adversary from the get-go, how can you expect a single one of these people to listen to a single word you have to say?
I don't mean to criticize Christians especially, but anyone with that attitude, that somehow if another person doesn't believe what they do, then they just don't get it. If you want someone to listen to your idea, you have to first make yourself open to the ideas of others. Otherwise, it's just a conversation between two deaf-mutes.
Cheers.

Answer 7

Your question seems to refer to Saint Thomas Aquinas' 5 proofs of the existence of God... including the unmoved mover, first cause, and necessity. I really can't argue with those first 3 proofs and quite frankly I agree with them. It's when you try to get me to agree to a personal God like what is in the Bible that I disagree. This is how I think about it... for an analogy the human eye can't see infrared or ultraviolet... those forms of light are outside the range for our eyes to see, but we can see the colors in between. I see humans as imperfect and incapable of getting enough information to truly understand a universe as vast and complex as ours is. I understand there are things in life no human can understand no matter how much time and effort is put into the cause. So even though I think there has to be something in this universe that started it all, I accept that knowing what that thing could be is beyond my ability to understand. I guess that would make me Agnostic, but when you force me to make a choice I truly believe that that force is definitely not some supernatural being as portrayed by the bible or other religious documents. I guess that makes me an Atheist, but I am happy to live my life without the answer to that "ultimate question".

Answer 8

You're making the most fundamental mental oversight that is the core of religious confusion on this issue.

People are tricked into believing that everything has a beginning and an end. Roads, movies, books, etc., have beginnings and ends. Since the human life has a beginning and an end and humans are egocentric, we assume everything has a beginning and an end, including the universe.

However, one of the fundamental laws of physics is matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Matter and energy have no beginning and no end. They just BE forever and ever in one form or another.

No creator required.

That's the deepest mystery of all....that we keep trying to solve by making-up creators.

Answer 9

Nothing is more powerful than the small nuclear reactions that take place every day and mimic the first reactions that took place near the beginning of time. We are above all chemical factories that must obey the laws of the universe. We can , to a degree, imitate these same reactions in our laboratories. We know the processes work. Without the action of a supernatural being.

Answer 10

To jump to the supernatural explanation regarding this Universe does not make sense.

Without proof, its just fanciful thinking. To say that the bible says so is not proof. To look at the sunset, butterflies, and complex human organisms is not proof. To say that there is intelligent design to the universe or mankind can't explain why there were over 15 hominids that didn't make it, most notably the Neandertals. What are we, the new and improved models? What of the diseases, parasites, child rape, predations, and existence of evil in the world?

It reminds me of the movie "The God's Must Be Crazy," where an African Tribesman finds a Coke bottle in the desert. I find parallels between his thinking and the modern day Theist very similar...."hmmm, bottle fall from heaven, must be God," and "hmmm, look at the beautiful sunsets, birds, complex human oranisms, must be God." Both are explaining one unknown with another, but proving nothing.

But, alas, there's a scientific reason for our belief in god using CAVE MAN logic, it's in our genes. To survive in a hostile environment, our ancestors developed a god to believe in, to give them succor in time of peril and to cushion them from the despairing future of their utter death and annihilation.

Atheists are freethinking people and are more than willing to believe in a gods and goddesses, just show us the proof. Our quarrel is with irrationality, wishful thinking, superstitions, intellectual dishonesty, and all other forms of thinking that keep mankind mired in darkness, ignorance and hate.