A question about the Dogon people of Mali and their knowledge of Sirius B?

Question

Sirius is the brightest star in the night-time sky. It is a binary star system consisting of a blue-white main dwarf star and a faint white dwarf companion, known respectively as Sirius A and Sirius B. It is impossible to see Sirius B except with very powerful telescopes and it was not discovered until the 1840's. There is a possibility, however, that the Dogon people of Mali in Africa had knowledge of Sirius B prior to this time. They have incorporated this small companion star into their mythology and rituals. There is, of course, controversy over whether the Dogon actually had prior knowledge of Sirius B before its discovery by western astronomers or whether that knowledge came from cultural contamination with Europeans.

The question here is:

Do you believe Dogon knowledge of Sirius B might actually antedate its discovery by astronomers?

and

If you do believe this to be a possibility does that belief in any way influence your views on whether or not the earth may have been visited by ancient astronauts from afar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon#Controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius

Otis F - Thank you for enriching this discussion first with your open-minded answer and also with the references you shared here.

g3n1_ouz0 - Thank you for the reference you shared here and in Mythology & Folklore also. I have not seen that article before.

TopherM - Please note the following at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius#Mysteries

"There remain a few unsolved mysteries regarding Sirius:

Possible Third Member in System

Since 1894, some apparent orbital irregularities in Sirius B have been observed, suggesting a third very small companion star, but this has never been definitely confirmed."

Remember, please, that it was just such orbital irregularities of the planet Neptune that led to the eventual discovery of Pluto. Who is to say who will have the final word on this matter. Perhaps the Dogon will yet prove to be right about that third member of this star system.

[ЭΩ∞] - That must have been some lunch. I mean THAT was yesterday and THIS is today. I'm still waiting. Are you still "out to lunch?"

"*" I'm not sure what my paradigm of faith might be. There is more agreement here than one might suspect. I often play the devil's advocate. It's a role I feel strangely comfortable in. Zap whatever you please.

Answer 1

I have read several books and internet documentation on this interesting subject. IT makes a good story, but it is just that, a story!! The critics of this report are quick to point out that the anthropologists who reported this information, Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen, stated that they recorded this knowledge of the Dogon people in the 1930s (which can not be verified) and published it AFTER they left the tribe in 1956 and even then it was not widely publicised until Robert Temple took up the subject in 1975.

The second star in the Sirius system was first hypothesized by the Euopean astronomer Bessel in 1844 and discovered (visually) in 1862 by Alvin Clark. An astronomer named Adams had pretty accurately predicted Sirius B's orbit around Sirius A and orbital period by 1915. There are also accounts of Sirius B being seen with the naked eye as back as far as 25 AD when it appeared red in contrast to the bright white Sirius A (due to redshift since it was in motion around Sirius A)!!

So why is it so fancy that the Dogons knew about it in the 1930s? The Dogons could have heard about the hypothesis from someone who knew of the hypothesis or the previous sighting (or could have sighted it themselves), become facinated with it, and worked it into their mythology during the years PRIOR to when it was then recorded by Dr. Giraule and Dr. Dieterlen.

And the BIG kicker is that the Dogons now say that there are THREE, not two, stars in the Sirius system. Barring some incredible mystery, we should be able to detect a third star using modern technology but it is just NOT THERE. So, someone please tell teh Dogons, and anyone who listens to them about their mythology of Sirius B, that they are WRONG!!

Finally, the main assumption of Robert Temple's book in 1975 about the Dogon people is thier ISOLATION. IN the 1930s, these people were fairly isolated by todays standards, but were far from in a complete VACUUM from the rest of the world. First of all, there are approximately 300,000 Dogon people. They are in Mali within about 6 hour walk of the Mopti airport and a half-days boat ride on the Niger river to the cities of Koulikoro (110,000 people), Ségou (100,000 people), Timbuktu (MAJOR Tourist site, population 32,000) and Gao (tourist site, population 38,000). That means that by comparison, the Dogons have a popluation about the size of Tampa, FL, Newark, NJ, or Buffalo, NY, while they are closely surrounded by two tourist sites and two cities about the size of Gainesville, FL, Hartford, CT, or Berkeley, CA. By reading Robert Temple's book and the resulting conspiracy theories, you get the idea that this tribe is 100 people out in the middle of nowhere, which just is not the case!! To assume that they never visited these popluation centers just down the river and couldn't have heard about the discovery of Sirius B is absolutely insane. Add the fact that they have always worshiped Sirius A in their rituals (for obvious reasons, it is the brightest star in the sky next to our sun!!), and you can bet that they were flying around town ASKING about the latest news on Sirius whenever they had the chance then incorporating the news into their mythology when it came along!!

Hardly isolated, but it makes for a good book!! Albeit a book written in 1975 about the archeologists' experiences in the 1930s-50s. Hardly first hand and very open to interpretation, wouldn't you say??

These people are NOT as isolated as some conspiracy theorists have made them out to be. Today, their economy runs mostly on, you guessed it, TOURISM!!

Answer 2

No. The probability that people without any telescopes knew of Sirius B is so small as to be completely insignificant. It is on the same level as the probability that you could blow up a print shop and all the letter fragments would fall down to form Webster's Unabridged Dictionary.

So far we've seen no verifiable evidence of other sentient species. That said, I believe with some certainty that somewhere in our galaxy at some past, present, or future time, a sentient species did/does/will exist.

Why haven't we heard from them?

Perhaps they are not technologically advanced enough to be heard. They may be mastering stone knives right now, or experiencing their own Rennaisance.

Perhaps they are here right now. Any species sufficiently advanced to travel interstellar distances would be able to hide or masquerade with ease. That Boeing 737 that just flew by may be a surveillance craft.

Perhaps they are so far away they will never notice us and vice versa.

Perhaps they existed a million years ago and died out.

Perhaps they will exist a million years from now.

It is really impossible to know for sure.

The Drake Equation suggests that there is sentient life out there. The Fermi Paradox casts doubt. Play around with the calculation form at the second link and see what you think.

Answer 3

The evidence that the Dogon people knew of Sirius B dates from around 1860, and consists of the first European anthropological reports about them. Since Sirius B was discovered in the 1840s, and was big, big news, all you need to explain this phenomenon is that the Dogon people were not totally isolated. If news could have reached them, they would have been interested and remembered, because they had, as a culture, always been interested in Sirius (the brightest star in the sky).

Answer 4

Controversial claims are exactly what they are – controversial. Even the French anthropologists, Griaule and Dieterlen, who first reported the “Dogon people’s claims”, did so after decades of cross-cultural projections, dubious linguistic translations, contentious mythological massaging of data, inherent research bias, suggestive interpretations of parallel notions, and conceptual superimposition/fitting of tribal accounts over our modern day cosmological/astrophysical grid of knowledge. … So allow me, if you please, not to get into the divisive issue of “ancient astronauts”, or even the more troubling conjecture of “aliens from outer space”, but instead concentrate on discussing the original/pending issue of interest to you, namely: reincarnation (and its potentially lingering and otherworldly reminiscences). … Now, this is admittedly a highly contested matter and one that I do NOT intend to write a treatise about here. That said, I’d start at the very end by saying: “To me” reincarnation is a highly limiting, and frankly inconsequential, notion. Why? Because I believe ALL life forms (sentient beings or otherwise, here on Earth or in outer space) have ultimately evolved from the very substances of the Universe. And needless to say, to the substances of the Universe we (i.e. all life forms) must eventually return. Now, you might ask: But isn’t that a purely materialistic perspective? My answer is a resounding: NO. Why? Because I see the potential for everything (Life, consciousness, soul, etc.) already built into the very Universe that given enough time and the right circumstances can create “evolutionary miracles”; many of which still beyond anything that we have even begun to experience yet. In a first approximation/analogy you might even think of it as an all-embracing Spinoza-like Substance. … So why create artificial constructs, or worse yet, manifold parasitic ethereal/spiritual planes, when all we would ever need for Evolution (of any kind - physical, spiritual, or otherwise) is already built into the potential of those very substances? Why insist on forever freeze-framing an individual identity/soul/spirit (or whatever you want to call it) when nothing can exist in total isolation and beyond the Universal plane of existence and consciousness? … I have heard you (and at times courageously and justifiably so) voice your adamant discontent towards an increasingly dogmatic and close-minded “scientific community” and yet, curiously enough, you tend to overlook the very same unbending patterns and assertive assumptions in faithful paradigms. Who knows, perhaps someday soon we could ALL fly on the groundless wings of our hypocrisies and intransigent imagination! … Now, wouldn’t that make for a perfect anomalous Universe?

Answer 5

Thanks to you, I read this article about Sirius B.
You probably know all about it already but if you don't take a look.

http://chandra.harvard.edu/chronicle/040...

Even though I am no expert on the subject, I have always thought that aliens came from outer space and "dropped us some knowledge " in the past.
Since ancient greeks were ones who dropped some of that knowledge, and since they are aliens, could it be that they came from outer space? .......ok...just kidding. ;).....of course if that is the case, that would make me an alien.....in which case....WHATCH OUT YA

lol

Answer 6

Who is these Dog Gone people anyway? I think it is a delightful coincidence, nothing more.