South Africans - why do you guys refuse to see the extent of the depravity around you?

Question

I'm NOT reverting to form and trying to piss everybody off.

However, whenever I've brought up the issues of the out-of-control AIDS and runaway crime, I get told that it's 'not that bad' or 'we're an emerging democracy' or, my personal favorite, 'every place has crime'.
Every place does have crime, but nowhere near the volume or barbaric nature of what's going on in SA, and pretending that all is well is not helping you. You can deny reality, until it puts a gun in your face, or blows your head off.

I've lived in my neighborhood in New York for 6 years, and I've NEVER seen any crime.

My other favorite is being told you're an 'emerging democracy'. Guys, you're anything but. The ANC, like Robert Mugabe, will never give up power. Why should they? In the position they are in now, they can spend all your money with impunity, and blame everything on apartheid.
I wish that all goes well for every one of you, I really do - but you can't ignore the chaos around you.

milktart - guess you and I have never crossed paths. Seun (or meisie), whatever the case may be, I was born and raised in South Africa
Ek was army toe, en ek was grens toe, so I know wherof I speak. I've lived in America for 16 years, so I have a much clearer perspective than you could ever hope to have on this subject

I'm sick and tired of everyone blaming Africa's ills on the old standby - colonialism
As another answerer said, 'colonialism' worked out just fine in the USA

The rest of the world will ignore the barbarism in SouthAfrica because people only pay attention when white people are at fault
Nobody cares about SA anymore, because now it's blacks inflicting the terror, so it gets a pass.
My friend, 'colonialism', for want of a better word, is the best thing that ever happened to Africa. It pulled the continent out of savage tribalism, introduced reading and writing, the industrial age, as well as 20th and now 21st century technology to a culture run by witchdoctors
I

The only greed and thirst for power in question here is that of the assorted African dictators (like Mandela and Mbeki) after their individual wars of 'liberation'.
In not ONE country in Africa has majority rule worked - not one.
Conclusion - blacks in Africa cannot run their own countries, despite BILLIONS of dollars in aid from the West.
Think I'm a racist? Prove me wrong. Give me just ONE example of a successful majority ruled country.

There are no terrorists in suits in America and Britain. However, they are in abundant supply in Africa, as they steal land - creating famines, allow hundreds per day to drop dead of AIDS and allow human predators to prey on their populations unchecked.
This, while they live high on the hog and spend as much of your money as possible.

And then, if anyone has the audacity to question their greed and criminality, they hide behind the race card and declare themselves misunderstood victims.


and the

Dir 33 - amateurish response.
I'm not even going to put the population stats up to put your clumsy response in perspective.
You know how many more people live here?
Like I said, 6 years in this neighborhood and I've never seen any crime.
Going on seven.

Dir33 - you need to stop watching those Charles Bronson movies.
Crime rates in New York are the lowest they've been in decades, so I have no idea where you're getting your data.

Here's the real story - http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/new-york-has-lowest-crime-rate-among/n20060919150209990011?cid=842

And those statistics are for last year. It's even better this year.

As I said, six years in my neighborhood and not a hint of crime.
Almost seven.

londongal - I lived in South Africa for 26 years.
Know what the irony is? It was safer under apartheid.
Yes, for blacks. too.

Answer 1

Well, in answer to your question regarding the lack of acknowledgement of the current situation in SA:

I think that if someone truly loves his/her country then that person would be highly defensive of their country.
A person would not want to believe that the country they are staying in has highly significant problems.
By rationalizing the situation in SA, you could attempt to make yourself believe that the country you are staying in is great.
That is therefore the reason for remarks such as "it's not that bad" or "other countries have crime too".

I would like to say that SA does have many great things and this should be cherished, however it must be mentioned that by ignoring the problems that SA faces is a dangerous game and could lead to a rather tragic downfall of the country (which at present appears to be happening).

With regards to some of the remarks:
"It's not that bad" - This is simply not true. The situation is very bad and something must be done in order to rectify the situation. Try watching the 7pm news and you will see what is happening.

"Emerging democracy" - This has got nothing to do with crime levels, AIDS levels or the total lack of competence that is clearly apparent. Being an emerging democracy is no excuse.

"Other countries have crime" - The crime levels in other places should have no bearing on SA and is irrelevant. We should focus on our own situation rather than those of others. That being said, SA does undeniably have a horrific crime rate to the rest of the world, even making the Guinness Book of Records. Crime in other countries is infantile in comparison to that of SA.

"I have never been a victim of crime" - People who can honestly say this are extremely fortunate since there are millions of people who have not been so lucky. Looking at myself as an example, I have had three phones stolen, my wallet stolen, a car hi-jacked, my house burgled and a family member held up at gunpoint. I am not a unique case. This is happening on a daily basis to vast amounts of South Africans.

"Colonialism is to blame" - What a load of rubbish. The USA was a colony of Britain and is extremely successful today. India was a colony of Britain and is likely to be the next Superpower of the world. Australia was a former colony and is also extremely successful. "Colonialism" is being used as an excuse for lack of action. If this continues to occur, then we are locked in a never-ending cycle of blame. In 200 years, when poverty and corruption still rules the roost in Africa, will colonialism still be to blame? You cannot blame the past for ever.

The answerer "Dir33" gave some stats. Where did you get those stats? They appear to be outdated and incorrect. In future, please try to back your argument up with facts.

The answerer "Milktart" also seems to be confused as to the definition of a terrorist, so here's it is for your benefit:
A terrorist is a person who wishes to cause terror by deliberately targeting civilians ie) murdering non-soldiers.
To say that the USA and UK are terrorists is an absolute joke and should rather be posted in the "Jokes&Riddles" category.

Every South African should truly fight for a better country. That is what being a "Proud South African" is all about. If you love your country, then you should ensure that your voice is heard. Voicing your concerns is a truly powerful way of making people sit up and listen thus ensuring the possibility that the correct action will be taken

Answer 2

You know what - on the one hand you are right. Aids is rampant in the whole of Africa, and just like before apartheid the governing bunch are large enough and in control enough to stay in power, for say, maybe 40 odd years?

But every city is like New York, it has its good sides and its bad - the crime does happen in SA city's like it happens in New York and even in London ( where I live at the moment) but not where you or I am, every city has its dark side.

The problem is that all of Africa sees SA as the place to be safe and so filter down and cross the border illegally and then take jobs from locals - they are all starving visitors and locals alike and having all been involved in very angry wars their regard for the sanctity of life is low. So if killing means food and survival they will kill.

That is the one side of SA

The other is that the land and wildlife is unsurpassed anywhere else that I have traveled. Even USA with its wide open spaces doesn't have the same beauty as SA.

So the thing is to not be so angry. You have to view the country as a whole and accept that it is part of Africa and take it as you see it.

This is really a very complex and long debate and can't really be answered here. You are partly right, but browbeating everyone with anger is not going to get you answers and certainly not the constructive responses that you are looking for.

I plan to go back after my stint in UK, admitidly to Cape Town (a little less affected) but still not safe as you expect it to be. But then SA has never been safe as you are expecting it to be and thats not about apartheid or who is governing its about the atitudes of the different tribes - They still today attack each other, is that right?

Answer 3

From the nature of your arguement it's obvious that you have not been to any part of South Africa nor Africa for that matter. If you could come to this continent and experience the extent to which colonialism has broken down every aspect of the continent I doubt you'd be so quick to judge. Our continet has bourn the brunt of the greed of the west and their unquenchable quest for power and dominian over everything- at all costs.

In regards to the ANC staying in power till kingdom come: If there was indeed an injustice being perpetuated by the ANC and non-democratic procedure(as you have observed from your overseas country) I' certain there would have already been an outcry or some form of action taken. I seriously doubt that the West would simply ignore a matter that they thought they could solve and emerge the heroes. Never.

I think you should take a look at the terrorists posed in suits that represent the American and British governments, then make an informed comment on barbaric crimes.
I sincerly hope you stop thinking in the typical American way: With blinkers over your eyes. Yours have manifested to your mind

Answer 4

Milktart said, "If you could come to this continent and experience the extent to which colonialism has broken down every aspect of the continent I doubt you'd be so quick to judge."

The US, Canada, Vietnam, Australia, Cuba, Bahamas, Mexico (all of central and south America), Hong Kong, and the Baltic nations (colonised by the former USSR) are all examples of past "colonialisation" and yet their crime rates within a 12 year span did not abberate at any point as sharply as did RSAs, so your answer isn't an answer, but rather a political commentary. Let's be honest here!

As for what's happening in RSA, when taken into context with other nations, such as Zimbabwe, it's not nearly to that extent. Several nations, such as Botswana, Tanzania and countries on the upper western coast have been stable and experienced relatively insignificant disruption for some time now. Nations in northern Africa, mostly Arab monarchies and dictatorships (to a greater or lesser degree), appear to be rather stable; Tunisia (freely elected heads of state) and Morocco (consitutional monarchy) are fairly good examples.

As for why Africa and RSA particularly are experiencing turbulence and disruption now and have in the past, many variables are at play here, and it's not merely "colonialism," either. Blaming everything on one phenomenon is not only irrational, but dangerous, as mistakes unlearned are mistakes repeated.

Take a look at the concept of governance on the African continent, and you will find that with a few exceptions, many African nations are monarchies (for better or worse) or dictatorships (usually worse!). RSA has been a coalition government to some degree, with powerful political entities working to keep themselves in power while using some elements of democracy as well. That is still the case; the players have changed, the game has not.

Governance, concepts of governance, historical warfare and ethnic/tribal unrest, disease vectors, distribution of resources, social mores and conditioning have roles in weaving the fabric of society. Perhaps RSA is unlike its African sister nations, though in other ways it is; but such abrupt changes in social conditions are notable because it is often a precursor to large-scale civil unrest and has led to protracted and agonizing civil wars elsewhere on the continent and in the world.

Answer 5

All right, now listen and really listen good...
I've been living in South Africa and other parts of Africa my whole life....Which means 18 years now....
When I read your statement I can relate to Africa, but in South Africa it's a different story. Yes we have crime and yes we have bad things happening, but it's part of life. I agree with you when you say that our politicians have all the money and power to do what they please. I'm a white South African and everywhere I go I have to be on my guard. But that's the same why in New York also. Certain parts of South Africa is really bad....You also get gangs, but once again, it's only in certain parts.

I believe the big problem is created because of our diversity. We are truly a rainbow nation with different tribes and cultures and believes. For instant, some black traditional tribes believe that when you rape a virgin, you'll be cured of AIDS. This we all know is absolute nonsense, but if your brought up to believe that, why on earth would you believe anything a stranger tells you.

We do have our upsides. For example...We're hosting the 2010 soccer world cup.

I can't say anything about our land that will make you change your mind.... But I'm proud of it.
We have our ups and we have our downs, but once again, it's all about where you live in our beautiful land.

Cheers
Caring
(Proudly South African)

Answer 6

I have lived in SA for 21 years,and in London for 4, and not once, EVER, have I or any of my family been a victim of crime.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but at least South Africa is not the enemy, or target of any country. We do not travel, or work with the fear of being bombed. I am more scared in England than in South Africa.

I am returning home permanently in January next year, and I can't wait. I have saved enough money to start a business, I have bought a house, and am ready to begin my life a fresh, along with my family.

Each to their own, but you can't judge a country you have never lived in.

Answer 7

New York crime rate

Year Population Index Violent Property Murder Rape
2005 19,254,630 491,829 85,839 405,990 874 3,636

Robbery assault Burglary Theft Theft
35,179 46,150 68,034 302,220 35,736

well "I've lived in my neighbourhood in New York for 6 years, and I've Never seen any crime"

Cardiovascular Disease in New York State

Cardiovascular diseases are the leading causes of death in New York State, killing more than 70,000 residents each year. For every person who dies from a heart attack or angina, 18 people live with these conditions. For every person who dies from a stroke, seven people cope with the consequences of a non-fatal event. Many of these survivors are disabled and cannot lead productive lives. They also are at high risk for additional events. These numbers are increasing as the epidemic of heart disease and stroke continues.

" out of control Aids" ok out of control ,Hearts in New York

What are you afraid of Yankees!


The population is mentioned . above ok per capita
New York’s crime rate per person: 6.9 per 100,000, making it it the deadliest city in the World

Johannesburg crime rate per person: 2.4 per 100,000 making it the deadliest city in Africa .

Well you have lived in South africa, you can't go back to Holland and the Americans haven't accepted you - oh I understand.

Identity crisis ..I understand .

Answer 8

wow.. imagine. 6 years without seeing a crime. man. Not all of us think its peaches and cream here...

Answer 9

this not a travel question

Answer 10

Hear, hear!