If America was founded on Equality?

Question

And all men - rich or poor - are equal

Then why are there so many poor bastards in America who can't even afford basic necessities like healthcare for their families? Why is there no proper Welfare Benefit system? Why if a poor man in the US claims Welfare Benefit to help his family he's a "scrounger" and its his fault and he made "Poor life choices" etc etc?

Yanks are far harsher towards their poor than us Brits are!!! With you its all freemarket economy, everything has to be paid for and those who can't pay have to go without.

We have a proper healthcare and social benefit system. Poor people get much more help here than in the USA. Social Sercurity Benefits are not a stigma!!!

But we're supposed to be the old order who were all "prejudiced" about their poor. Its now the other way around!!

Don't you think you need to look again at what your country stands for?

Senior Citiuzen

OMG yet again you Yanks bring up Irish Catholics - don't you get tired of that same old shite? If we want to talk about starving and brualitising peopel lets start with what YOUR people did to the American Indians!!!

And my gamily are of Irish Catholic desecent so "I" did nothing to them thank you very much. We took a hell of lot of them in over here too - thats where my Irish great grandparents came looking for work (They didn't want to go over the Atlantic to your shitty country, Wales was much more attractive to them! My Irish Great Grandad HATED America!)

Answer 1

I think there are several factors at work here.

Europe (including the UK) has traditionally had stronger social provision that the USA. This social provision has declined since 1979 in the UK but it is still noticeably stronger.

People who defend the USA will probably agree but say that their society is more egalitarian - there is more opportunity for social mobility, if you want to get ahead and make yourself rich there is more opportunity in the USA, so it doesn't matter that there is litttle or no welfare safety net for the poorest, because they basically don't deserve it because if they wanted to be rich they would just have to work for it....

I personally think there are two problems with such an argument.

The first problem is that the USA is actually NOT the land of opportunity. This is simply a myth.

Inter-generational social mobility is actually lower there compared to all of the following countries: UK, (West) Germany, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Canada.

Interestingly, social mobility in the UK has declined for people born in 1970 compared to those born in 1958 - which is the opposite of what you would think if you believed that the more American-style free market economics of Thatcherism were supposed to improve social mobility and egalitarianism!

The second problem is that even if the USA did have a high level of social mobility, would that also make it "fair" for the middle and working classes to have such low social provision? Why does it have to be a zero sum game where you have a choice between being a wealthy workaholic or fend for yourself in terms of healthcare, welfare when unemployed etc? Even if you are not unemployed or poor in such a society, say you have a good job, you are still under more stress than in a more equal society because of the fear of what will happen to you when you lose your job.

By the way, before any Americans attack what I'm saying here, I'm not telling you how to run your country, I'm just pointing out that the idea that your country is the "land of opportunity" is actually a myth. I'm also questioning the logic behind the argument that social mobility is a fair replacement for provision of a decent welfare and health system. I'm not attacking you or your country. If you enjoy living in your country then fair enough, good luck to you and I hope you are happy.

The following table shows the comparisons of different countries' social mobility, where the higher the number, the lower the social mobility, i.e. the less the country is a "land of opportunity"

International Estimates of Intergenerational Mobility
Panel 1
Earlier Cohorts - Fathers’ Single-Year Earnings as Measure of Status –
Two year average of son’s earnings.
Country Sons Born Partial Correlation
US 1954-1970 .3483
UK 1958 .2601
W. Germany 1960-73 .1803
Finland 1958-1960 .1471
Sweden 1962 .1431
Denmark 1960-1973 .1431
Norway 1958 .1391

Panel 2
Later Cohorts - Parental Income Average as Measure of Status – Single
Year Measure of son’s earnings
Country Sons Born Partial Correlation
US 1954-1970 .2892
UK 1970 .2712
W. Germany 1960-1973 .1712
Canada 1967-1970 .1432

Answer 2

I think you make two important but understandable mistakes in evaluating America.

First, the Equality envisioned at our nation's founding was equality before the law, not economic equality or equality of results. The idea was that all people should be treated the same when dealing with the government. No one gets royal priveleges, and no one is denied civil protection or civil liberties because of who they are. Our Founders were explicitly and openly opposed to "levelling", the idea that men can be made equal in the economic or social sphere.

Second, you also forget that our country was also founded on the concept of Liberty. What you see as Welfare Benefits or social healthcare, many of us see as an assault on liberty. It seems counterintuitive, but think of it this way. Welfare benefits are paid from government revenue; that revenue was obtained by taxation, which is involuntary payment to the government.

In essence, you are FORCING some people under threat of imprisonment or death to transfer what is rightfully theirs to someone else. That forcible transfer may be for a good cause, or to help others, but it is still compelling someone to do something against their will. If I want to help the poor, I'll do it voluntarily. If I am made to do it at the point of the revenuer's gun, I have lost liberty.

But as others have pointed out, the U.S. is not entirely a free-market economy and we do have social assistance programs. Many necessities, like food and shelter, are subsidized by the government. Emergency healthcare is available free of charge, and there are charities which assist families in getting insurance or medications.

Most Americans do not begrudge helping those in real need. A recently widowed mother, students struggling to get through school, a father temporarily out of work- none of them would be stigmatized. What many Americans don't like are individuals who are perfectly capable or working, but choose to take benefits instead. Or, those who repeatedly engage in self-destructive behavior and rely on forced charity from others to sustain their selfish lifestyles.

I don't see why freeloaders like that shouldn't be scorned.

Answer 3

When we say it was founded on "equality," that is in reference to RIGHTS. It has nothing to do with rich or poor.

In America we will come up with a solution for all this. But your NHS is in bad shape, as are all the other health care and welfare systems of Europe, and CANADA as well. No thanks, we'll figure something else out.

You don't have a "proper healthcare and social security system." The fact is, your government cannot afford to keep those going the way they have the past 50 years. Something WILL give, believe me.

Love, Jack.

Answer 4

You watch to many movies. The poor in the USA have far more access to health care then those who work. The issue in the USA is the rich can afford the care and the poor get it free from the government but those who work get nothing.

Used to be the Brits were the most cordial now they are among the rudest people on earth. ( Ok they are number 18 with New Yorkers being number one...look it up)

Answer 5

If you knew what you were talking about, it may have been an interesting post. This country was founded on the basis of religious freedom, we have a long way to go before equality.

But since you brought up socialized medicine, you should mention all the problems you have. Cancer patients waiting to get treatment, waiting months for a dentist, etc., your system is not perfect either.

And there is still a major division of classes in the UK. Do you think you need to get more information before you proclaim to know what it is like to live here? How would you know anything about what people get, I mean really.

Your benefits system is much like ours, job seekers allowance is our unemployment, pensioners benefits are our Social Security. No we are not perfect, but then neither are the high taxes you have to pay in the UK. At least that is what my family there tells me. We do not need to rethink what our country stands for. Hold the UK to the same standards as you expect us to be held to.

Answer 6

America was not founded on Equality, but Liberty and Justice for all. It appears ""Equality rains in the Religious rhetoric. We are all equal before and in the site of God. Here down to earth it is based on value-system. Does the Mc Donald worker have the same value as a Medical Doctor.? That is a question on the social fabric of the US, and since its inhabitants come from all over the world, no one can agree on what equality is. Look how long it took for the US to agree on black and white equality, and still working on it in education and so on. The neclect of the past, is burdening the present. But I agree the US needs to wake up and not point the finger at the rest of the world for its backwardness, when in fact it has so much to clean up here at home. You made a good point.

Answer 7

The UK has matured as a nation - it too went through the stages the USA is . The politics in Europe are actually more that the one dimensional shoot-em all and let god sort e- out that America is.

As a Canadian living next to them it's been an interesting but frightening to watch them at work.We are actually younger than the US but have retained a large British and European mind set than they have for some reason .

They say equal - read George Orwel's "Animal farm" some really are more equal than others.

It's liberty for some etc. No they don't care and no they don't see it. Talk to them again in 200 yrs and they might

Answer 8

Remember that whole "We hold these things self evident.... that all men were created equal....yada yada ...life liberty and the pursuit of happiness) Was a letter to King George.

The Declaration of Independence is nothing more than a letter written to provoke King George into attacking America.

The money that the founding fathers made off of the war was phenomenal. They could have cared less about your freedom they were industrializing a conflict.

Go big Red Go

Answer 9

Why should a nation have any benefit system?

The best form of benefit is to provide work for your populace.

If the work isn't there then the populace moves to where the work is.

In Britain people don't have to look for work so a lot of them don't even bother.

There are those who obviously can't work but then those aren't the problem. The problem is with those that are able to work but choose not to 'cause it's easier.

Answer 10

Heya BT, im a fellow Brum as well, small world hey?

In response to your question, America currently has the same attitude towards the poor as did Victorian England. Hell, even then we had a better system then they do.

But im sure their gonna call us Communists, Socialists or weak Liberals..hell, if helping someone too poor to afford food is Socialist, then count me in