One for the non-atheists only, please?

Question

Where do the transgendered fit in with your belief? And do include evidence, directly quoting from the Bible, Qur'an, what ever - don't just say "read it and see", don't just say "God has condemned you". Please don't just call them all queers, fags, sick, whatever, I only want intelligent answers from intelligent people who are prepared to discuss this intelligently.

Please understand - transgender has nothing to do with sexual preference, it is gender identity. And I know the OT laws against homosexual practice - that is not what I am asking. Please no more answers on homosexuality. I am referring to being physically one gender, but not feeling it, believing with your whole heart and soul that you are the other gender "inside". Where does your god or gods fit in with that? Is the individual condemned to live life in the wrong body? Are they considered to be engaging in homosexual sex if they are having sex with someone of the same gender identity, but different physical gender? That is what I am asking. Please stick to the question, and don't go off topic (and some of you went WAY off).

Tammi Dee - that was just abusive, and not helpful to the topic.

Answer 1

If you decide to go down the road of being "Trans...." why are you even concerned with fitting in with a religion? You know that there were avenues in which you may not be able to travel down because of the choices that we have in life. So I believe that if your truly seeking an answer to your question, then your setting yourself up for disappointment.

Answer 2

Being religious does not mean being a biblio-idolator. All of the books of faith are, while very nice -- mythic. Permit me to use the Bible as the example, since I know it best.

While we have none of the autographs of the Bible, the early manuscripts we do have have and that are known to be genuine, by the most conservative estimates, have 200,000 differences between the wording in them, and while many are not meaningful, some completely change the doctrine of the church. (Ehrman, Bart, Ph.D.; Misquoting Jesus: The story behind who changed the Bible and Why; Harper Collins, 2006 -- p. 89). less conservative estimates range up to about 400,000 -- and there are programmers now endeavoring to write a program that will be able to count the exact number of variances.

And that's only the start of the difficulties for the Bible. If you only use the Textus Receptus (Received Text) as it is printed in modern Bibles then you are looking at enormous problems anyway -- in fact insurmountable ones. The World does not have corners (Isaiah 11:12), nor does it sit on pillars (I Samuel 2:8), nor water (Psalms 24:1-2). God did not establish a solid dome over the earth (that's what firmament literally means) and he does not have a palace on top of it from which angels can come and go up Jacob's ladder -- which might be reached by the tower of babel -- and where he keeps "treasuries" of hail and snow (Job 38: 22-23). For the sake of all that is decent, you can't even harmonize the 1st and 2nd chapters of Genesis with each other, say nothing of being able to defend the Biblical creation as scientifically factual. That's no surprise though, as the Bible tells us that beetles have four legs (Leviticus 11: 21-23) and that rabbits chew their cuds (Deuteronomy 14:7). It says that pi is 3, not 3.14 (I Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2) and that the mustard seed is the smallest seed in the world and grows into a tree [neither of which are true] (Matthew 13: 31-32). It is hardly a font of rational thought or scientific accuracy. Furthermore these errors only scratch the surface. Try harmonizing accounts in Joshua and the telling of the same tales in timeline in Judges sometime. If you can you are more proficient than any theologian I've ever met, and I've met a few.

Late bronze age men created the OT and early iron age ones the NT. It is not surprising therefore that God cannot lead Israel to defeat Iron chariots after promising he would (Judges 1:19), and it is not surprising that the flight of Israel from the god Chemosh, after the king of a city the Jews were beseiging and that God had promised them they would overthrow The King of the city offered his own son to Chemosh as a human sacrifice, resulting in Chemosh driving the Israelites away (2 Kings 3: 19-27) -- further it is not surprising that no punishment is mentioned -- the Israelites were still sacrificing their own children, as is evidenced in several places, but most graphically in Judges 11:30-39

The long and short of it is, the Bible is a mythic book, written by bronze and iron age men who were recording primarily oral legends in written form. In any realistic sense it is drivel. You can see, just in the passages I noted above from 2 Kings -- the last vestiges of polytheism fading away. Chemosh was supposed to get power from human sacrifice, just as Jehovah did -- and that power allowed him to turn the table against Israel, despite the fact that God was with Israel.

Read the verses, read the context -- to all the things I've suggested, calm your breathing and thinking and ask yourself if this is really the God of the Universe you are reading about -- or a tribal deity, which has now evolved into the one we worship. I think you will find biblegod sadly lacking -- something the liturgical churches have been saying for hundreds of years. If you find yourself unwilling to even look -- ask yourself why? Are you willing to sacrifice the truth, in order to maintain a comfortable myth for yourself?

And if you want a chuckle, read the second, and theoretically final version of the ten commandments. They are in Exodus 34: 10-26. That is the covenant Yahweh actually made with Israel. No seething here.

So whether gay or transgendered, the faith is one of love -- and what any holy book says is utterly meaningless.

Have a nice day.

Regards,

Reynolds Jones
Schenectady, NY
http://www.rebuff.org
[e-mail]

Answer 3

As one who had a gender dysphoria when they was a child, then formed a sexual attraction on the same gender while role playing the opposite gender I was born all before I was six years old one may seem to think it was not my choice. Wait, what was not a choice, my gender dysphoria or my innocently forming a sexual attraction of the same gender. The two were separate issue. also the two separate issues were treated as one single issue of homosexuality.

You are on the correct path to see that they are separate issues. My opinion that the homosexuality formed will lead the gender dysphoria once it is accepted. One can become comfortable with the body they was born with after counseling. Then if one has formed an attraction on same gender one must also ask for help to change this as well. I was 40 before I realized the difference in the two separate issues and could even see them as two separate issues. It is called gender identity crisis. Though many put it in the category of gender identity disorder. Trans gender is when a person wants to be the opposite gender. This would often lead a person to accept homosexuality as well.

Even if a person lives as a transsexual, one that has had a sex reassignment surgery, much of you will remain the same inside, your feelings. One can change a feeling, but one can not change the plan they was designed to live.

I kind of relate it to the story about Adam and Eve in the Holy Bible. Before I was even thought of, God Almighty decided that He needed this part played in His plan. He found a soul and spirit that was perfect for the part. Designed for it. Then the soul was tempted to be a male instead of a female. The spirit was not effected the same. Once born the soul thought it was a male. there was no other question before it. it had not even considered an attraction to be formed, the issue became the soul thought it was a male, and the spirit thought it was a female. Eve was designed to not eat the apple, her soul was tempted to do different than the design she was planned for. Yet Adam was tempted after Eve ate the apple, it was temptation of the flesh. this is were i equate my sexual attraction forming to same gender.Though it is not stated in the Holy Bible, some say the theorized Eve was forgiven of her transgression because she was given a man child from God Almighty signifying she had repented of her transgression against god Almighty. She did not blame God Almighty and she tempted Adam, and she sinned many ways, but repented. They theorize that Adam was not saved because he blamed Eve, and God Almighty for what he did, he could not accept he himself agreed to this sinning he had done. So I think if one can accept somehow someway they decided to be different than the design for the plan of God Almighty, one can repent and be helped by Jesus Christ.

Answer 4

I'm mostly only answering to be a smartass. I'm a non-atheist, but I'm agnostic. So...YAY transpeople! I think that there are several levels of morality: there's that which you would judge others on (for me, it comes down to whether or not you're hurting someone / denying them rights), there's that which you judge yourself on (for me, a little bit stricter but not much; there are things that I wouldn't do that I don't judge other people for) and then there's that which should be legislated (in America, law should be based on the founding principles of equality and freedom). None of the letters in GLBT go against any of these. I'm fortunate enough to be cisgender, but that doesn't mean there's something "wrong" with people who aren't. I think things would get a lot simpler if we did away with arbitrary gender roles and traits and divisions in society.

Answer 5

Sorry,but I'm an atheist and had to make a comment. You would be much better served by not worrying about religion, and if you are the trans person, being the most well adjusted 'new' person you can be. I think that you will find prejudice in any 'organized religion' and who needs tjhat when you are trying to fit into the world as a whole new person. (sorry, I agree with Tammidee)

Answer 6

I'm muslim, and in my opinion ,even though the quran tells the story of sodom and gomora(sorry I know you asked for a reference but I don't remember) I think there is nothing wrong with being gay. A person doesn't choose to be attracted to their own gender, god makes them that way. But I don't know why gay guys dress up in drag and have gay pride parades.
But Islam does condemn gay people.

Answer 7

From what I know, wicca has nothing in it dealing with the GLBT community. As for the binaries present in most religions, I'd have to say transpeople fit wherever their core identity is.

Answer 8

Romans 1:21-27, 29-32
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever,Amen.
*****For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is AGAINST NATURE:
*****And likewise also the men, LEAVING THE NATURAL USE OF WOMAN, BURNED IN THEIR LUST ONE TOWARD ANOTHER; MEN WITH MEN WORKING THAT WHICH IS UNSEEMLY, AND RECEIVING IN THEMSELVES THAT RECOMPENCE OF THEIR ERROR WHICH WAS MEET.
Being filled with all Unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness;full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, HATERS OF GOD, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, withour natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
WHO, KNOWING THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD, THAT THEY WHICH COMMIT SUCH THINGS ARE WORTHY OF DEATH, NOT ONLY DO THE SAME, BUT HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM THAT DO THEM

When it says they are worthy of death, it means HELL. I know it seems like a lot to read, but homosexuality is wrong in the sight of the Lord. I pray that you get a clear understanding from what I have written from the Word of God, In Jesus Name.....Amen

Answer 9

Why worry about a bunch of ignorant Christians who are less than puppets for their hateful leaders.
Tammi Dee

Answer 10

Though I don’t think that much of the Old Testament and even the New Testament should be read literally because many of the injunctions contained in it pertain to ideas of ritualistic purity, or relate to culture taboos of the time, more than morality. With that said, I believe many Christians would cite the following verses against those who are transgender:

1. “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.” (Deut 22:5).


2. “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head-it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels. (Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.) Judge for yourselves; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not nature itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her pride? For her hair is given to her for a covering. If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3-16).


The two passages above are the most explicit concerning upholding traditional appearances for men and women in the Bible.