Have you encountered a very convincing argument for why gay marriage should be allowed in the United States?

Question

I have been deliberating in my own mind about the subject of same sex marriage over the past few days. At first, I was disconcerted, because the only argument against gay marriage that I could think of was because of my religious beliefs. I have thought deeper about this matter, and have come up with the following arguments:

1. Mammals tend to imitate their parents. Granted, not all gay couples will adopt children, nor have them from previous relationships- in addition, adopting kids (if the parents have the right motives at heart) is a praiseworthy effort. However, and this applies especially for younger, more impressionable kids- the children will imitate their parents' behaviors. Why is that significant? There would be more gay marriages, and less procreation. It would probably take a very long time, but eventually, the human race could become extinct.

(to be continued below)...

Second problem with legalizing gay marriage:

If every state in the U.S. were to legitimize same-sex marriages, then the result is obvious: more marriages will occur. The divorce rate right now is staggering- last I checked, it was apx. 58%. The divorce rate will increase if gay marriage is legal, since there will be more marriages, there will be more divorces. In some countries where gay marriage is licit, the divorce rates have increased. This would create a bottleneck in our legal system.

In addition, children raised in gay families would be very prone to seeing 'straight' couples as abnormal. Again, this could result in fewer straight marriages, relationships, and offspring.

I mean and intend no disrespect towards gay people- but what is to come after gay marriage is legalized? There will always be another landmark. It's just human nature. It is inevitable that once gay marriage is legal, that gays will demand that some other formerly taboo become constitutional.

Please understand- I mean no disrespect towards gays nor anyone else here- but to continue:

As I said above, it's human nature to keep striving for more. Perhaps if same-sex marriages are legalized, then gays will next demand legislation that their philosophy be taught in public schools. Or, older men who are gay may make demands that laws be passed so that they can marry young teenage boys, who aren't of age and legal status. The same applies for gay women.


And finally, if gay marriage- if the marriage is only a piece of paper, which I have heard some argue, then why are gays striving so passionately to obtain it? If it's 'only' a piece of paper, why should they care?

Okay. That's enough for now.

Thank you all for reading and/or participating.

I appreciate all- err- most of the responses. I appreciate all you intelligent people- not those who would accuse me of copulating with my sister.

In any event, I wanted to remark about a few things.

First of all, I am not anti-gay people. That's not the purpose of this debate, anyway- it's about gay marriage. I think gay people have a right to be respected, but that doesn't mean that I think that they should be entitled to marry a member of the same sex.

If sexual orientation is genetic, if one is born that way, then how do you explain people like Little Richard? He used to be gay many years ago, but turned straight afterward.

I cannot agree that all men are created equal- I know Thomas Jefferson said that, but our leaders are not always all-knowing. The truth is that we are not all equal. Some of us are born with the ability to walk, others aren't. Some of us are more intelligent than others. So, we are not all equal. At least not in these aspects.

Answer 1

GAY MARRIAGE

More than half of all people in the United States oppose gay marriage, even though three fourths are otherwise supportive of gay rights. This means that many of the same people who are even passionately in favor of gay rights oppose gays on this one issue.

Why all the passion?

It's because there is a lot of misunderstanding about what homosexuality really is, as well as the erroneous assumption that gay people enjoy the same civil rights protections as everyone else. There are also a lot of stereotypes about gay relationships, and even a great deal of misunderstanding of what marriage itself is all about and what its purpose is.

The purpose of this essay, then, is to clear up a few of these misunderstandings and discuss some of facts surrounding gay relationships and marriage, gay and straight.

First, let's discuss what gay relationships are really all about. The stereotype has it that gays are promiscuous, unable to form lasting relationships, and the relationships that do form are shallow and uncommitted. And gays do have such relationships!

But the important fact to note is that just like in straight society, where such relationships also exist, they are a small minority, and exist primarily among the very young. Indeed, one of the most frequent complaints of older gay men is that it is almost impossible to find quality single men to get into a relationship with, because they're already all 'taken!'

If you attend any gay event, such as a Pride festival or a PFLAG convention, you'll find this to be true. As gays age and mature, just like their straight cohorts, they begin to appreciate and find their way into long-term committed relationships.

The values that such gay couples exhibit in their daily lives are often indistinguishable from those of their straight neighbors. They're loyal to their mates, are monogamous, devoted partners. They value and participate in family life, are committed to making their neighborhoods and communities safer and better places to live, and honor and abide by the law. Many make valuable contributions to their communities, serving on school boards, volunteering in community charities, and trying to be good citizens. In doing so, they take full advantage of their relationship to make not only their own lives better, but those of their neighbors as well.

A benefit to heterosexual society of gay marriage is the fact that the commitment of a marriage means the participants are discouraged from promiscous sex. This has the advantage of slowing the spread of sexually transmitted diseases, which know no sexual orientation and are equal opportunity destroyers.

These benefits of gay marriage have changed the attitudes of the majority of people in Denmark and other countries where various forms of gay marriage have been legal for years. Polling results now show that most people there now recognize that the benefits far outweigh the trivial costs, and that far from threatening heterosexual marriage, gay where various forms of gay marriage have been legal for years. Polling results now show that most people there now recognize that the benefits far outweigh the trivial costs, and that far from threatening heterosexual marriage, gay marriage has actually strenghtened it.

So, having established the value of gay marriage, why are people so opposed to it?

Many of the reasons offered for opposing gay marriage are based on the assumption that gays have a choice in who they can feel attracted to, and the reality is quite different. Many people actually believe that gays could simply choose to be heterosexual if they wished. But the reality is that very few do have a choice -- any more than very few heterosexuals could choose which sex to find themselves attracted to.

Additionally, many people continue to believe the propaganda from right-wing religious organizations that homosexuality is about nothing but sex, considering it to be merely a sexual perversion. The reality is that homosexuality is multidimensional, and is much more about love and affection than it is about sex. And this is what gay relationships are based on -- mutual attraction, love and affection. Sex, in a committed gay relationship, is merely a means of expressing that love, just the same as it is for heterosexuals. Being gay is much more profound than simply a sexual relationship; being gay is part of that person's core indentity, and goes right the very center of his being. It's like being black in a society of whites, or a blonde European in a nation of black-haired Asians. Yes, being gay is just that profound to the person who is. This is something that few heterosexuals can understand unless they are part of a minority themselves.


The Arguments Against Gay Marriage

Well, of course there are a lot of reasons being offered these days for opposing gay marriage, and they are usually variations on a few well-established themes. Interestingly, a court in Hawaii has recently heard them all. And it found, after due deliberation, that they didn't hold water.
Here's a summary:

Marriage is an institution between one man and one woman. Well, that's the most often heard argument, one even codified in a recently passed U.S. federal law. Yet it is easily the weakest. Who says what marriage is and by whom it is to be defined? The married? The marriable? Isn't that kind of like allowing a banker to decide who is going to own the money in stored in his vaults? It seems to me that justice demands that if the straight community cannot show a compelling reason to deny the institution of marriage to gay people, it shouldn't be denied. And such simple, nebulous declarations, with no real moral argument behind them, are hardly compelling reasons. They're really more like an expression of prejudice than any kind of a real argument. The concept of not denying people their rights unless you can show a compelling reason to deny them is the very basis of the American ideal of human rights.

Same-sex couples aren't the optimum environment in which to raise children. That's an interesting one, in light of who society does allow to get married and bring children into their marriage. Check it out: murderers, convicted felons of all sorts, even known child molesters are all allowed to freely marry and procreate, and do so every day, with hardly a second thought, much less a protest, by these same critics. So if children are truly the priority here, why is this allowed? The fact is that many gay couples raise children, adopted and occasionally their own from failed attempts at heterosexual marriages. Lots and lots of scientific studies have shown that the outcomes of the children raised in the homes of gay and lesbian couples are just as good as those of straight couples. The differences have been shown again and again to be insignificant. Psychologists tell us that what makes the difference is the love and commitment of the parents, not their gender. The studies are very clear about that. And gay people are as capable of loving children as fully as anyone else.

Gay relationships are immoral. Says who? The Bible? Somehow, I always thought that freedom of religion implied the right to freedom from religion as well. The Bible has absolutely no standing in American law, as was made clear by the intent of the First Amendment (and as was very explicitly stated by the founding fathers in their first treaty, the Treaty of Tripoli, in 1791) and because it doesn't, no one has the right to impose rules anyone else simply because of something they percieve to be a moral injunction mandated by the Bible. Not all world religions have a problem with homosexuality; many sects of Buddhism, for example, celebrate gay relationships freely and would like to have the authority to make them legal marriages. In that sense, their religious freedom is being infringed. If one believes in religious freedom, the recognition that opposition to gay marriage is based on religious arguments is reason enough to discount this argument.

Marriages are for procreation and ensuring the continuation of the species. The proponents of this argument are really hard pressed to explain, if that's the case, why infertile couples are allowed to marry. I, for one, would love to be there when the proponent of such an argument is to explain to his post-menopausal mother or impotent father that since they cannot procreate, they must now surrender their wedding rings and sleep in separate bedrooms. That would be fun to watch! Again, such an argument fails to persuade based on the kinds of marriages society does allow routinely, without even a second thought, and why it really allows them - marriage is about love, sharing and commitment; procreation is, when it comes right down to it, in reality a purely secondary function.

The proponents of the procreation and continuation-of-the-species argument are going to have a really hard time persuading me that the human species is in any real danger of dying out anytime soon through lack of reproductive success.

If ten percent of all the human race that is gay were to suddenly, totally refrain from procreation, I think it is safe to say that the world would probably be significantly better off. One of the world's most serious problems is overpopulation and the increasing anarchy and human misery that is resulting from it. Seems to me that gays would be doing the world a really big favor by not bringing more hungry mouths into a world that is already critically overburdened ecologically by the sheer number of humans it must support. So what is the useful purpose to be served in mindlessly encouraging yet more human reproduction?

Same-sex marriage would threaten the institution of marriage. Well, that one's contradictory right on the face of it. Threaten marriage? By allowing people to marry? That doesn't sound very logical to me. If you allow gay people to marry each other, you no longer encourage them to marry people to whom they feel little attraction, with whom they most often cannot relate adequately sexually, bringing innocent children into already critically stressed marriages. By allowing gay marriage, you would reduce the number of opposite-sex marriages that end up in the divorce courts. If it is the stability of the institution of heterosexual marriage that worries you, then consider that no one would require you or anyone else to participate in a gay marriage. You would still have freedom of choice, of choosing which kind of marriage to participate in -- something more than what you have now. And speaking of divorce -- to argue that the institution of marriage is worth preserving at the cost of requiring involuntary participants to remain in it is a better argument for reforming divorce laws than proscribing gay marriage.

Marriage is traditionally a heterosexual institution. This is morally the weakest argument. Slavery was also a traditional institution, based on traditions that went back to the very beginnings of human history - further back, even, than marriage as we know it. But by the 19th century, humanity had generally recognized the evils of that institution, and has since made a serious effort to abolish it. Why not recognize the truth -- that there is no moral ground on which to support the tradition of marriage as a strictly heterosexual institution, and remove the restriction?

Same-sex marriage is an untried social experiment. The American critics of same-sex marriage betray their provincialism with this argument. The fact is that a form of gay marriage has been legal in Denmark since 1989 (full marriage rights except for adoption rights and church weddings, and a proposal now exists in the Danish parliament to allow both of those rights as well), and most of the rest of Scandinavia from not long after. Full marriage rights have existed in many Dutch cities for several years, and it was recently made legal nationwide, including the word "marriage" to describe it. In other words, we have a long-running "experiment" to examine for its results -- which have uniformly been positive. Opposition to the Danish law was led by the clergy (much the same as in the States). A survey conducted at the time revealed that 72 percent of Danish clergy were opposed to the law. It was passed anyway, and the change in the attitude of the clergy there has been dramatic -- a survey conducted in 1995 indicated that 89 percent of the Danish clergy now admit that the law is a good one and has had many beneficial effects, including a reduction in suicide, a reduction in the spread of sexually transmitted diseases and in promiscuity and infidelity among gays. Far from leading to the "destruction of Western civilization" as some critics (including the Southern Baptist, Mormon and Catholic churches among others) have warned, the result of the "experiment" has actually been civilizing and strengthening, not just to the institution of marriage, but to society as a whole. So perhaps we should accept the fact that someone else has already done the "experiment" and accept the results as positive. The fact that many churches are not willing to accept this evidence says more about the churches than it does about gay marriage.

Same-sex marriage would start us down a "slippery slope" towards legalized incest, bestial marriage, polygamy and all kinds of other horrible consequences. A classic example of the reductio ad absurdum fallacy, it is calculated to create fear in the mind of anyone hearing the argument. It is, of course, absolutely without any merit based on experience. If the argument were true, wouldn't that have already happened in countries where forms of legalized gay marriage already exist? Wouldn't they have 'slid' towards legalized incest and bestial marriage? The reality is that a form of gay marriage has been legal in Scandinavian countries for over many years, and no such legalization has happened, nor has there been a clamor for it. It's a classic scare tactic - making the end scenario so scary and so horrible that the first step should never be taken. Such are the tactics of the fear and hatemongers.

If concern over the "slippery slope" were the real motive behind this argument, the advocate of this line of reasoning would be equally vocal about the fact that today, even as you read this, convicted murderers, child molesters, known pedophiles, drug pushers, pimps, black market arms dealers, etc., are quite free to marry, and are doing so. Where's the outrage? Of course there isn't any, and that lack of outrage betrays their real motives. This is an anti-gay issue and not a pro marriage issue.

Granting gays the right to marry is a "special" right. Since ninety percent of the population already have the right to marry the informed, consenting adult of their choice, and would even consider that right a fundamental, constitutionally protected right, since when does extending it to the remaining ten percent constitute a "special" right to that remaining ten percent? As Justice Kennedy observed in his opinion overturning Colorado's infamous Amendment 2 (Roemer vs. Evans), many gay and lesbian Americans are, under current law, denied civil rights protections that others either don't need or assume that everyone else along with themselves, already have. The problem with all that special rights talk is that it proceeds from that very assumption, that because of all the civil rights laws in this country that everyone is already equal, so therefore any rights gay people are being granted must therefore be special. That is most assuredly not the case, especially regarding marriage and all the legal protections that go along with it.

Sodomy should be illegal and was until very recently. Ah, the ol' sodomy law argument! Why was sodomy illegal in so many states for so long? Because conservative religionists (at whose behest those laws were enacted in the first place) historically blocked or vigorously resisted attempts to repeal them in every state, and were horrified when the U.S. Supreme Court recently overturned the ones that remained.

Indeed, those laws were very rarely enforced (though it did happen), yet there was very stiff and angry opposition to their repeal. Why? Because they were a great tool for a homophobe to use as a basis for legalized discrimination. "Why should I rent an apartment to you, an unconvicted felon?" "I can't have an admitted criminal on my staff." "You're an unconvicted felon. I want you out of my restarurant and off my property." "I don't want you around my children. You're a sex offender!" These were very real, actual arguments that were used frequently as a basis for legalized discrimination, using largely unenforced sodomy laws. So even though this particular moral crusade of the religionists using the power of the police has ended, at least for now, the sodomy laws that made them possible are still being pushed, and pushed hard. Crass politicians, including even president George W. Bush, see votes in homophobia, and continue to push for sodomy law reinstatement as a means of securing those votes. And such laws, which have thoroughly discriminatory effects by intention, will likely will be advocated for as long as politicians see votes in allowing conservative religionists to impose their morality on others, regardless of the violence this does to the intent of the Bill of Rights.

Heterosexuals would never stand for such intrusion into their private sex lives, of course, but the homophobes among them seem to see nothing wrong in using the power of the state to enforce their prejudices. State court systems, however, long ago began to see the violation of the Fourth Amendment in such laws, and nearly as many state sodomy laws were overturned as unconstitutional by state supreme courts as were repealed by state legislatures, before the recent U.S. Supreme Court in Lawrence vs. Texas decision which very pointedly overturned all that remained.

Gay marriage would mean forcing businesses to provide benefits to same-sex couples on the same basis as opposite-sex couples. While this may or may not be true (based primarily on state labor laws), the reality is that many businesses already do offer these benefits to gay couples, and for sound business reasons. And experience has shown that when they do, the effect on their costs for offering these benefits is minimal - very rarely does the cost of benefits offered to gay couples cause the business' benefits costs to rise by more than 1.5%. This trivial cost is usually far more than offset by the fact that the company is seen as being progressive for having offered these benefits - making its stock much more attractive to socially progressive mutual funds and rights-conscious pension funds and individual investors, and thus increasing upwards pressure on its price. This is why so many corporations, including most of the Fortune 500, already offer these benefits without being required to do so - it's just good business sense.

Gay marriage would force churches to marry gay couples when they have a moral objection to doing so. This argument, usually advanced by churches that oppose gay marriage, is simply not true. There is nothing in any marriage law, existing or proposed, anywhere in the United States, that does or would have the effect of requiring any church to marry any couple they do not wish to marry. Churches already can refuse any couple they wish, and for any reason that suits them, which many often do, and that would not change. Some churches continue to refuse to marry interracial couples, others interreligious couples, and a few refuse couples with large age disparities and for numerous other reasons. Gay marriage would not change any church's right to refuse to sanctify any marriage entirely as they wish - it would simply offer churches the opportunity to legally marry gay couples if they wish, as some have expressed the desire to do - the freedom of religion would actually be expanded, not contracted.


The real reasons people oppose gay marriage

So far, we've examined the reasons everyone talks about for opposing gay marriage. Now, let's examine now the real reasons, deep down inside, that people oppose it, hate it, even fear it:
Just not comfortable with the idea. The fact the people aren't comfortable with the idea stems primarily from the fact that for many years, society has promoted the idea that a marriage between members of the same sex is ludicrous, mainly because of the objections raised above. But if those objections don't make sense, neither does the idea that gay marriage is necessarily ludicrous. Societies have long recognized that allowing civil rights to certain groups may offend some, and at times, even the majority. But that is why constitutional government was established -- to ensure that powerless, unpopular minorities are still protected from the tyranny of the majority. Simple discomfort with a proposal is no reasonable basis for not allowing it - how many Southern whites were once uncomfortable with allowing blacks to ride in the front of the bus, or allowing black children to attend the same schools as their own, or drink at the same drinking fountain? Half a century ago, those ideas were just as unthinkable - yet nowadays, hardly anybody sees them as a problem, seeing the fears as nothing more than racism, pure and simple.

It offends everything religion stands for. Whose religion? Many mainstream Christian denominations, to be sure, and definitely most branches of Islam and Orthodox Judaism, but outside those, most religions are unopposed to gay marriage, and many actually favor it. When the Mormon church arrogantly claimed to represent all religions in the Baehr vs. Lewin trial in Hawaii, the principal Buddhist sect in that state made it very clear that the Mormon church didn't represent them, and made it very clear that they support the right of gay couples to marry. That particular Buddhist sect claims many more members in Hawaii than does the Mormon church. In a society that claims to offer religious freedom, the use of the power of the state to enforce private religious sensibilities is an affront to all who would claim the right to worship according to the dictates of their own conscience.

Marriage is a sacred institution. This is, of course, related to the motive above. But it is really subtly different. It's based on the assumption that the state has the responsibility to "sanctify" marriages - a fundamentally religious idea. Here we're dealing with people trying to enforce their religious doctrines on someone else, but by doing it through weakening the separation of church and state, by undermining the Bill of Rights. Not that there's anything new about this, of course. But the attempt itself runs against the grain of everything the First Amendment stands for - one does not truly have freedom of religion if one does not have the right to freedom from religion as well. It would seem to me that anyone who feels that the sanctity of their marriage is threatened by a gay couple down the street having the right to marry, is mighty insecure about their religion and their marriage anyway.

Gay sex is unnatural. This argument, often encoded in the very name of sodomy statutes ("crime against nature"), betrays a considerable ignorance of behavior in the animal kingdom. The fact is that among the approximately 1500 animal species whose behavior has been extensively studied, homosexual behavior in animals has been described in at least 450 of those species. It runs the gamut, too, ranging from occasional displays of affection to life-long pair bonding including sex and even adopting and raising orphans, going so far as the rejection by force of potential heterosexual partners, even when in heat. The reality is that it is so common that it begs an explanation, and sociobiologists have proposed a wide variety of explanations to account for it. The fact that it is so common also means that it clearly has evolutionary significance, which applies as much to humans as it does to other animal species.

Making love to another man betrays everything that is masculine. Well, I've known (and dated) plenty of very masculine gay men in my day, including champion bull-riding rodeo cowboys and a Hell's Angel biker type, who, if you suggested he is a limp-wristed fairy, would likely rip your head off and hand it to you. There was a long-honored tradition of gay relationships among the tough and macho cowboys of the Old West, and many diaries still exist detailing their loving and tender relationships out on the range, and the many sacrifices they made for each other. Plenty of masculine, respected movies stars are gay - indeed, Rock Hudson was considered the very archtype of a masculine man. Came as quite a shock to a lot of macho-men to find out he was gay! So what's wrong with all these kinds of men expressing love for each other? Why is that so horrible about it? A society that devalues love devalues that upon which civilized society itself is based - love and commitment.

The core fear here is the fear of rape and a loss of control or status as a masculine man. This is instinctual and goes right to the core of our being as primates. If you examine what happens in many animal species, especially displays of dominance in other primate species, dominance displays often have sexual overtones. When, for example, in many species of primates, a subordinate male is faced with aggression by a dominant male, the dominant male will bite the subordinate, causing him to squeal in pain, drop the food or the female and present his rump. This is an act of submission, and it is saying to the whole troupe that the subordinate is just that - subordinate.

This happens in humans just as it does in other primates. It is the cause of homosexual rape in prisons. Homosexual intercourse in prisons is not an act of sex as much as it is an expression of dominance and a means of control. Nearly all of the men who aggressively rape other men in a prison setting actually revert to (often promiscuous) heterosexual sex once they're on the outside.

So is this something straight men should fear from gay men? Well, you can relax, all you straight guys. You've nothing to worry about. The vast majority of gay men prefer sex in the same emotional setting most of you do - as a part of the expression of mutual love, affection and commitment. We're not out to rape you or force you into a subordinate position. The majority of gay men don't want sex with you because we're looking for the same thing in a sexual relationship that you look for - the love and affection of a devoted partner. Since we're not likely to get that from you, you're not desirable to us and you have nothing to fear from us. The small minority of us (and it's a very small minority - less than 3%) who do enjoy sex with straight men understand your fears and are not going to have sex with you unless it's clearly and completely understood on both sides to be on a peer-to-peer basis and your requirement for full and complete consent and need for discretion is honored.

The thought of gay sex is repulsive. Well, it will come as some surprise to a lot of heterosexuals to find out that, to a lot of gays, the thought of heterosexual sex is repulsive! But does that mean the discomfort of some gays to heterosexual couples should be a reason to deny heterosexuals the right to marry? I don't think so, even though the thought of a man kissing a woman is rather repulsive to many homosexuals! Well then, why should it work just one way? Besides, the same sexual practices that gays engage in are often engaged in by heterosexual couples anyway - prompting the ever-popular gay T-shirt: "SO-DO-MY -- SO DO MY neighbors, SO DO MY friends."

They might recruit. The fear of recruitment is baseless because it is based on a false premise - that gay people recruit straight people to become gay. We don't. We don't recruit because we know from our own experience that sexual orientation is inborn, and can't be changed. Indeed, the attempts by psychologists, counselors and religious therapy and support groups to change sexual orientation have all uniformly met with failure - the studies that have been done of these attempts at "therapeutic" intervention have never been shown to have any statistically significant results in the manner intended, and most have been shown to have emotionally damaging consequences. So the notion that someone can be changed from straight to gay is just as unlikely. Yet there remains that deep, dark fear that somehow, someone might get "recruited." And that baseless fear is often used by bigots to scare people into opposing gay rights in general, as well as gay marriage.

The core cause of this fear is the result of the fact that many homophobes, including most virulent, violent homophobes are themselves repressed sexually, often with same sex attractions. One of the recent studies done at the University of Georgia among convicted killers of gay men has shown that the overwhelmingly large percentage of them (more than 70%) exhibit sexual arousal when shown scenes of gay sex. The core fear, then, for the homophobe is that he himself might be gay, and might be forced to face that fact. The homophobia can be as internalized as it is externalized - bash the queer and you don't have to worry about being aroused by him.


The opposition to gay marriage stems ultimately from a deep-seated homophobia in American culture, borne out of religious prejudice. While many Americans do not realize that that homophobia exists to the extent that it does, it is a very real part of every gay person's life, just like racism is a very real part of every black person's life. It is there, it is pervasive, and it has far more serious consequences for American society than most Americans realize, not just for gay people, but for society in general.


Why This Is A Serious Civil Rights Issue

When gay people say that this is a civil rights issue, we are referring to matters of civil justice, which often can be quite serious - and can have life-damaging, even life-threatening consequences.
One of these is the fact that in most states, we cannot make medical decisions for our partners in an emergency. Instead, the hospitals are usually forced by state laws to go to the families who may have been estranged from us for decades, who are often hostile to us, and can and frequently do, totally ignore our wishes regarding the treatment of our partners. If a hostile family wishes to exclude us from the hospital room, they may legally do so in most states. It is even not uncommon for hostile families to make decisions based on their hostility -- with results consciously intended to be as inimical to the interests of the patient as possible! Is this fair?

Upon death, in many cases, even very carefully drawn wills and durable powers of attorney have proven to not be enough if a family wishes to challenge a will, overturn a custody decision, or exclude us from a funeral or deny us the right to visit a partner's hospital bed or grave. As survivors, estranged families can, in nearly all states, even sieze a real estate property that a gay couple may have been buying together for many years, quickly sell it at the largest possible loss, and stick the surviving partner with all the remaining mortgage obligations on a property that partner no longer owns, leaving him out on the street, penniless. There are hundreds of examples of this, even in many cases where the gay couple had been extremely careful to do everything right under current law, in a determined effort to protect their rights. Is this fair?

If our partners are arrested, we can be compelled to testify against them or provide evidence against them, which legally married couples are not forced to do. In court cases, a partner's testimony can be simply ruled irrelevant as heresay by a hostile judge, having no more weight in law than the testimony of a complete stranger. If a partner is jailed or imprisoned, visitation rights by the partner can, in most cases, can be denied on the whim of a hostile family and the cooperation of a homophobic judge, unrestrained by any law or precedent. Conjugal visits, a well-established right of heterosexual married couples in some settings, are simply not available to gay couples. Is this fair?

These are far from being just theoretical issues; they happen with surprising frequency. Almost any older gay couple can tell you numerous horror stories of friends and acquaintences who have been victimized in such ways. One couple I know uses the following line in the "sig" lines on their email: "...partners and lovers for 40 years, yet still strangers before the law." Why, as a supposedly advanced society, should we continue to tolerate this kind of injustice?

These are all civil rights issues that have nothing whatsoever to do with the ecclesiastical origins of marriage; they are matters that have become enshrined in state laws by legislation or court precedent over the years in many ways that exclude us from the rights that legally married couples enjoy and even consider their constitutional right. This is why we say it is very much a serious civil rights issue; it has nothing to do with who performs the ceremony, whether it is performed in a church or courthouse or the local country club, or whether an announcement about it is accepted for publication in the local newspaper.


Why Does Conservative Politics Find Gay Marriage So Deeply Threatening?

As George Lakoff, in his excellent book, "Moral Politics" points out, conservatism is based on a "strict father" metaphor of morality, in which a wise father (church or political leader) sets the rules, and the children (the people) are disciplined to comply, thereby gaining self discipline, and with it, autonomy and self-sufficiency. For a complete understanding of this metaphor, which is beyond the scope of this essay, I would refer readers to Lakoff's book, but inclusive in that metaphor is a set of moral boundaries established by the "strict father," who is, in this case, the moral authorities of the church and the political system working in concert. These moral boundaries exist in society, in the conservative's view, not just to keep people on the straight and narrow path to autonomy and self sufficiency, but primarily to maintain social order and discipline, and that is their primary purpose. Compliance to the established moral boundaries implies acceptance of the legitimacy of the moral authority figures who established them, and it is this acceptance of the legitimacy of this moral authority that is viewed as the very basis of social order. Hence there is a deep investment in the legitimacy of the moral authority, often presumed to be none other than God himself.
Therefore, someone who moves off the sanctioned paths is doing something much more than just acting immorally; he is rejecting the goals of the society in which he lives; he is calling into question the purposes that govern most peoples' lives, but he is also doing something even much more threatening: By deviating from the standard, ordained "path," he is showing people that other paths are possible, and that those other paths may not neccessarily be unsafe to tread upon, nor is society harmed by his actions.

By so doing, he calls into question the legitimacy of the moral boundaries he has violated, and hence, the competence and legitimacy of the moral authorities who established them. Since moral boundaries are the very essence of conservative politics, the very basis of conservatism itself is brought under implied threat.

As serious as that is, the threat goes beyond even that: When the "deviant" treads his forbidden path, and not only gets away with it, but ends up living a happy, fulfilled and contented life with no harm done to himself or society, the conservative himself feels cheated, in having observed a set of boundaries which have proven to be unneccessary and arbitrary. And in doing so, he feels cheated of his own freedom of action, even if he had not himself bumped up against those particular boundaries. The conservative thereby feels he is being implicitly invited to abandon those moral boundaries and join the "deviant" in accepting increased freedom by rejecting moral authority. Fear that others may reject these apparently arbitrary moral boundaries, and hence question those who decreed them, and cause society to fall apart, is the reason for the conservatives' deep paranoia about the mythical "gay recruiting" and the equally mythical "gay agenda." Hence, conservatives have a deep emotional investment in keeping gays repressed through the maintenance of this particular set of moral boundaries, just as they did in maintaining their moral boundaries underlying racial segregation in the Deep South a generation ago and slavery a century before that.

How then should conservatism, as a political movement and a way of life, come to grips with the reality of gay marriage? In precisely the same way that it has come to grips with its errors with regards to racial segregation: own up to its mistake, and simply expand its moral boundaries to include gays and gay marriage. Just as most older conservatives now acknowledge that they once erred in "keeping blacks in their place," they should make the same acknowledgement for gays and their right to marry, and live happy, open and contented lives in each other's arms, without fear or discrimination - that gays are just as entitled to the equal protection of the law as anyone else, and the 14th Amendment to the U.S. constitution means what it says and applies to gays as well. No "slippery slopes," no "slouching towards Gomorrah", no "end of civilization as we know it"; just freedom, liberty and justice for all.



its all about love babe and its happening every day no ones gonna be extinct.

Answer 2

I don't get the equal treatment under the law thing? What laws are different for a gay man than for me? The law is the same for everyone and so is this equal rights thing I hear all the time. In the state I live in, it would be illegal for two straight men or two straight women to marry each other as well. I guess you could say that is equal treatment for all. It is not really equal rights that some say they want it is actually new rights that currently nobody regrdless of race, sex, color, creed, religion, or sexual preference has. There is a big difference between the two. I also dislike the comparrison of this issue to what black Americans went through not long ago. I have never saw a sign on a restaurant that says "STRAIGHT ONLY" or one on a restroom that says "NO GAYS ALLOWED". Personally I could care less about this issue or what people do with their private lives. I could never imagine waking up every morning with a big hairy leg rubbing up against me but to each their own I guess. I know you can never fix all the bias we as individuals have....and we all have them but the bottom line is in this country basic civil rights and laws are the same for all. What you are talking about changing goes much further than religion. I think our society and culture in general still views marriage as a union between a man and a woman and that will be difficult to change no matter how many new rights and laws are conceived.

Answer 3

I was glad to see such well thought out reponses to your question- I was afraid of what I'd find. Marriage gives straight couples over 1100 legal rights that no other relationship is permitted. If the religious zealots hadn't fanned the flames several years ago, the gay community might have accepted civil unons as long as all the legal rights were in place. But no, they had to get up on their pulpits and beat their chests and complain that the gays were out to destroy the country.
Mammals do imitate their parents. But we are humans and can be taught how to think for ourselves. Shock and awe!
One of the prerequisites for a lesbian couple to adopt a child is that they have close male family members or friends to help be role models. I'm sure it would be the same situation for 2 gay guys adopting. We teach our children that a gay family is different from other families but filled with love.
Children raised in a gay home don't turn out gay anymore than children raised in a straight home.
Straight marriages are failing by over 50 %. Gay marriages might fail too, but that's to be seen. If the gay marriages are to succeed, they need to be accepted by the general public.
Your idea that there would be more and more gay population and less and less straight population to reproduce mankind is so stupid, I won't even go there.
Stupid ideas!!!!

Answer 4

Mammals may tend to imitate their parents in the wild...
Humans are more than animals and are basically predisposed toward one or the other sex from a very early age.t the odds of a huge number of future generations turning gay based on parents is unlikely, the odds of it ever making a dent in the population are zip. Like you said, gay people have children, too. And you dont have to be a married gay couple to have them, either. Single gays or gays living together have them, too

The number of divorces may go up but I doubt the percentage will. And the number of break ups in all relationships shouldn't change. Plus, is it really anyone elses business who divorces?

As far as gay men demanding to be allowed to marry young boys, thats absurd. Im sure there have been some straight men who have wanted to marry young girls..........that hasnt happened.
Nobody is asking for changes in anything except the legality of gay marriage, not the ability to marry middle-schoolers

I think gays are striving to have that "piece of paper" because they work, pay taxes, go to war, etc and they are not given the same rights. I myself dont really see the problem with a "legal union" if religious groups are so scared to "taint" the word marriage, but thats only myself. I think its more important to have the rights and benefit....insurance, social security, medical decisions, etc etc that straight people do

Finally.........I dont think its possible to just "turn" gay or straight, as in the case of Little Richard. A lot of people are bisexual and may have a stronger preference for one gendar at one time, and then the other gender. I think most people are essentially somewhat bi, but most dont act on it

sorry so long, but a long question!

Answer 5

Sorry, but your arguments are faulty.

1. People are born gay. There can be other reasons for this behavior, but that's the big one. No one is going to have sex with a gender they don't find attractive just because their parents did it.

2. Gay marriage doesn't preclude procreation. It does require a man and woman (for the most part!) but it doesn't require marriage.

3. Why is having a higher divorce rate bad? It's just numbers. And I'm not even sure the math is correct....this is embarrassing to admit, but if there are more marriages, and more divorces, doesn't that perhaps even out?

4. Don't worry about jail bait. That's a completely separate issue and not unique to the gay community. I was jail bait once, and my lover was male (oh, and I'm a girl). Besides, the laws against this are for a completely different reason, the protection of minors. It's not going to change.

5. Not everyone says that marriage is just a piece of paper. Don't tar everyone with the same brush! One of the things they want is recognition and equality.

In case it's not obvious, I'm all for it - come what may!

Answer 6

I know plenty of same-sex couples and only 1 of the children (out of around 18) is a lesbian, which I don't believe has anything to do with her parents sexuality.

GLBTQs have every right to get married. Lots of people say that it will destroy the sanctity of marriage, but with half of all heterosexual marriages ending in divorce I think the sanctity is already gone. GLBTQs have fought so hard to be able to marry that i don't think any of them will take marriage as lightly as heterosexual couples do. I think they are a lot less likely to divorce, and a lot more likely to cherish each other (and their children) more than any heterosexual couple ever could.

As a heterosexual you probably take for granted your rights once you're married (if you are married). Homosexual couples, no matter how long they've been together, often can't stay with each other in the hospital outside of visiting hours, aren't automatically entitled to each others things or even some things they shared after one dies unless written in a will, and even then it is often fought by the deceased's family. There are many other rights that couples can only get once they're married, and there's no reason why gay couples shouldn't be given these rights.

Oh...yeah, and there's this little thing called 'Separation of Church and State'... Gay marriage shouldn't be illegal based on some close-minded people's religious beliefs.

Answer 7

I think the real question is have you ever encountered a very convincing argument for why "gay" marriage should NOT be allowed in the United States? Coz all i've heard is ignorance, bigotry, hatred and discrimination behind ALL the reasons to be against it.

1.) All homos come from heterosexual environments so homos adopting children should lead to the children being straight, not that being homo or hetero is a environment thing or something you can catch of course, as you are born that way. It is not

something that is chosen, no one would choose it. Won't the human race eventually become extinct if everyone was straight? There are only a finite amount of resources to go around.

So because straights are so bad at marriage "gays" shouldn't be given the chance at marriage? Why don't you ban divorce if you are so worried about it.

Children in "gay" families would not see straight couples as abnormal because unlikes straights "gays" tend to be a lot more open minded and don't teach their children to be bigots or haters. Again, we are in no danger of becoming extinct through fewer straights breeding, this wouldn't occur and it would only benefit the planet if it did. Heterosexuality is a very environmentally unfriendly lifestyle! Straights are breeding the planet to death with their over proceation.

You do realise a lot of these arguments you are putting up are the same ones that racists used against inter-racial marriage?

Especially this slippery slope nonsense: If we allow one form of marriage it will open the floodgates to a whole host of other bizare "marriages". Homosexuality has no more to do with things like incest and bestiality for example than heterosexuality does. Homosexuality is comparable to heterosexuality and nothing more. It is no different than the difference between white and black skin or male and female. Heterosexuals like people sexually based on their gender and so do homosexuals. And homosexuals will NOT be interested in demanding that some other former taboo becomes constitutional they are interested in "gay" marriage and nothing more, they are not perverts into anything they are interested in the same sex.

Homosexuality is already taught as normal in schools simply because it is. That's the mainstream position of the impartial American Psychological Association which represents the 100's of 1000's of Americas doctors. You can't lie to school children just to appease hateful bigots. And homosexuals are not interested in children either. A homosexual is attracted to someone of the same sex not children. A homosexual man is attracted to other men that is the definition of a homosexual. A pedophile is attracted to children and over 98% of pedophiles are heterosexual. Heterosexuals represent a much bigger threat to children than homosexuals do.

The marriage is only a piece of paper remark is something that straights who don't want to be married used and if that is so why do ANY straights care about marriage? Clearly some people don't want to get married and some do. You do realise there are plenty of "gays" that wouldn't want to get married just because it becomes legal? But just because some straights dont want to get married doesn't mean others should be barred from doing so i'm sure you would agree.

The question those that are anti have to answer sufficiently and none have so far is:

Why should straights get the special right of being able to marry the gender they are attracted to when they are no different to homosexuals other than the gender they are attracted to?

The difference is comparable to skin color or gender. It's like saying if you have white skin you can marry but if you have black skin you can't.

And as for that little Richard whoever that is who is to say he was really "gay" anyway? Maybe he was just confused or deluded or something. And because of one person you are going to judge millions of others? Whose to say its NOT genetic for most people huh. It's not something most people can just opt out of or change that's for sure. So one fluke of nature hardly proves anything.

Answer 8

In this case, marriage is a legal contract that binds two people in the eyes of the state. This has significant ramifications legally. One example is: if one partner is involved in an auto accident and is in the hospital, a legal spouse will have access to see them and discuss care with doctors, a gay partner will not.

As to imitation of parents, being gay is biological, not a choice or a philosophy (although I am sure there is the odd case out there, but the VAST majority is biological). Studies have shown that gay individuals have the same physiological reactions seeing attractive members of the same sex, as straight folks have seeing attractive members of the opposite sex. This means you cannot become gay by watching gay people. Seeing parents in a happy marriage will hopefully set a good example for kids to want a happy marriage themselves, gay or straight.

As to divorce, who says divorce rates will necessarily go up? And shouldn't we address the real problem here: divorce. Divorce is a social problem that has nothing to do with being gay or straight. The solution to divorce is not to prevent marriage in the first place. This is a separate issue.

Speaking of divorce, and speaking of morality, regardless of whether you think it is a good decision, why should we prevent two adults from making a lifetime commitment to each other? Isn't it a worse example to set for children having many people (again, gay or straight) living in relationships that are not committed? Why should we prevent any two adults from making a lifetime commitment to someone they love?

Being gay does NOT mean having sexual feelings for children. That is something completely different.

Thank you for opening a needed discussion and for being open to hearing the other side of the argument.

Answer 9

your arguments are based on bias and speculation about things which you obviously don't understand.
mammals tend to imitate their parents? please! must of us gays/lesbians were raised be STRAIGHT parents! so if we "imitated" our parents, then we wouldn't be gay??
more gay marriages would also not mean there would be less procreation. we can and do have children! gays/lesbians have been around forever, and the human race is not extinct yet.
yes, there would be more marriages. why shouldn't we be able to enjoy the same rights? more divorces? perhaps? but then, shouldn't we have the right to screw up marriage like straight people have? with all the infidelity, divorce and out of wedlock children that straight people have, they've done a good job at making a mockery of marriage anyway.
and if it's just a piece of paper, why do STRAIGHT people strive to attain it??
there have been lots of issues that were once taboo/illegal that people with common sense have come to see were wrong and those ideas and laws have been changed.
you're using the same lame arguments that most homophobes/bible-thumpers like to use, and they are just not true!

also, Redcatt63 up above is an impersonator...everyone who knows me here knows I;m not a foul-mouthed bigot!

Answer 10

I have not heard a convincing argument for why gay marriage should NOT be allowed in the US. Your argument is ridiculous. Children raised by Homosexual parents will not end up being gay to imitate their parents. Sexual orientation is genetic, it is not something that can be changed. Just like gays now are born and raised by straight parents. Besides, even if the world did become totally gay, procreation would NOT cease to exist, there are such things as artificial insemenation, and surragate mothers. Your argument does not hold water.

Answer 11

What are you 12??? Mammals don't drink milk after they are winged from there parents either. I'm sure you still enjoy a nice glass of milk... Your convincing argument is idiotic. My mother and father were both striagt. But I'm a lesbian? No sense what so ever. As for your Straight statistics on the divorce rate, well maybe we could teach the straight community a little staying power. Since your community feels that divorce is the solution to everythin. Your just out of your league....