Is this logical?

Question

Earlier today I suggested that Western values were superior to those of the Islamic world. Almost everybody disagreed with me.
I ask now, how can one espouse the values of freedom, democracy, secularism, feminism etc. and still contend that Islamic values are on a par with our own?
To suggest all cultures are equal is akin to suggesting repression and superstition are as desirable as freedom and democracy.

Answer 1

What you're suggesting is logical.

What is NOT logical is that you seem to think that when you are being logical, others will automatically agree with you.

Answer 2

I understand what you're saying but a lot of it has to do with culture and upbringing and this determines what an individual perceives to be acceptable.

You've been brought up in a society which holds the values of freedom, democracy etc in high regard and to you these are important, fundamental rights.

There are other cultures around the world which have been brought up in such a way that they place different values on things - this doesn't necessarily mean that they're wrong or right, just that they're different.

In some cultures the importance of the family, for example, takes precedence over everything else and is held in much higher regard than in the US or Europe. Proponents of these cultures find it very difficult to understand why we (westerners) don't show more respect to our families.

Other cultures place the over-riding emphasis on age and in these examples if a parent, older relative, more senior person asks you to do something it's done immediately and without question - regardless as to what it is or how inconvenient it may be.

In other cultures the role of women is very much secondary to that of men, a concept that we would find quite alien and would consider to be extreme.

Recently I was in a country where I had to tidy my room and wash my dishes and laundry in secret - if a man had seen me doing this I'd have been told to leave it for a woman to do and if a woman had seen me she'd have stepped in and taken over. I asked the women about this and they wouldn't want it to be any other way. And no, this wasn't some totalitarian regime or dictatorship, it was a democratic and mixed Christian / Muslim country.

These people live their lives this way and are perfectly happy to do so because it's the tradition and culture and is how they've been brought up. We might consider it be repressive, demanding, demeaning, sexist, over-bearing, disrespectful etc but that's only because we place a higher or lower emphasis on different values.

I wouldn't say that western values were superior to those of the Islamic world, different - yes, but superior - no. People in the Islamic world have been bought up to respect different ideologies and values, this is their way of life, it's what they chose because it's what they want. If they weren't happy following the values they do then they'd adopt different values.

All the Moslems (and people of other faiths) that I know hold true to their beliefs and even when alone in the privacy of their own homes will continue to follow the rituals and routines that they hold dear. In such situations they could easily chose not to follow these rituals and routines but they chose to do so because they want to do so.

Answer 3

you're quite right. it's not possible that everybody with different beliefs be equal. the reason you would have stirred up such disagreement would, i expect, be that people are looking for an idealistic system in which all people are equal. and while i applaud such an aim, it is lamentably incompatible with the diversity of belief we have at present. though i hesitate to nominate any one belief as "right" there must inevitably be one system which is superior to the others. in the event that this system (or indeed any other, really) were to gain complete and unchallenged influence over the world, peace would reign. however, this cannot (by definition) happen in a world where there are multiple belief systems.

so the people you stirred up were (or are) latching on to a largely unattainable ideal. no two belief systems can be equal. one will always have superiority over another in some respect.

also (or alternatively), given the current state of the world, i would imagine that your earlier responders - at least some of them - were attempting to instill some sense of moral rectitude in themselves (if it was not already present, as it fortunately still is in some) by proffering an almost univerally satisfactory solution to the "problem" facing humanity - one equivalent in both content and, sadly, credibility to the "and they lived happily ever after" ending reminiscent of many stories (lies? you decide) fed to children

Answer 4

I think some people need to do some serious studies as to what is done in the Arab world and what they have done to others. You will find that if they know what they are talking about from an objective perspective, they will be more inclined to agree with your first position. Not all cultures are equally acceptable among civilized nations. If that were so then we would openly allow street gangs to run our cities ... of forgive me, we do , don't we? I guess you can see the problem. For the record, I am not a conservative.

Answer 5

I would like to show that I'm an open-minded and thoughtful person by defending those on the other side of your argument, but I am so ****ing sick of doing it. A minority of people have distorted real Islamic values to gain money and power. I'm pissed because if that happened in this country, I would give my life in the fight against it. There are a great number of good people who want peace and equality in the middle east and elsewhere. I wish they would stand up for themselves (it's easy for me to say that because I'm not living my life in constant fear). In your question, you compare a religion, Islam, to Western values. If by Western values you mean Christianity, go back to your history lessons and check out the Inquisition. Also, check out what the western world did to Africa through Imperialism. We raped that continent and gave it back to its people in ruin. Now we blame them for their own problems. This has happened all over the world from South America to the Middle East. It's one of the reasons that Western countries are so wealthy. Do you think that England got its wealth from its own natural resources? Anyway, we need to promote education in the rest of the world so that people can see clearly.

Answer 6

i guess one argument why your case isn't logical is because your basing it on value system with definitions that alter between the to systems being compared.

Western Values also according to the current conservative talking points are very similar to the islamic world.

they expose this desire to recapture a past.....
they both use religion to keep thier people fearful or hateful.
they want prayer in schools....
they both want control over a womans reproductive rights......

are all cultures equal........that then is an opinion..an opinion of personal bias...there is no logic in that......that opinion would be emotive...
thanks.

Answer 7

It's not a logical debate, but rather an opinion on your belief system of what humans should have. I agree with you that our system is far better but that is a matter of perspective not logic. I think when you weight the ups and downs of both values you will see why it's not a logical debate but you will also see why we view our system to be a better value.

Answer 8

You started your argument on a false premise. SOME of our values are superior to SOME of their values, and vice versa.
We believe in 'democracy', and they have difficulty in grasping the idea. We are in the process of 'liberating' women, (still a long way to go, though.) and they in general don't. BUT, some of their moral values are superior to ours. (Pornography easily available to children on the Net, double standards on poverty, education, the breakdown of family structure, etc. Our blatant manipulation of the UN.) The West seems to have lost it's moral fibre.

Answer 9

No, it cannot be logical in the objective sense because you are basing all of your arguments on Western values to which you are biased.

Answer 10

according to me all those cultures which believes in equalities in all the respect has more superior values then others