This is not an attack. I would appreciate your thoughts though.?

Question

It seems to me, that quite a few in the gay/lesbian/transgendered are upset with many who talk about what the Bible has to say on homsexuality becasue of the approach of those who claim to believe it. I feel this way, it is one thing for a person who chooses to live a gay/transgendered/shemale lifestyle to say "this is what I enjoy and this is what I am going to do regardless of what anyone else says." That is understandable to me. However, it is quite another to take a very clear cut rule, and say that it does not mean what it says. People do this with many rules in the Bible, not just homosexuality. Yet, we never assume that when traffic laws say drive 50mph that the lawmakers didn't really mean what they said. I understand very well what it is like to have sexual desires that are not commonly accepted in most of society. Yet, I don't tell people that the Bible does not say what is clearly written in it. Please only answer if you can do so without getting angry.

Answer 1

Never, ever, ever have I heard (or read) such a difficult question presented so well. Thank you.

As I read many other answers as well I appreciated the majority of commentors definitely keeping things civil. Thank you.

I believe that if a person claims to be a believer and follower of God, and that they testify that the Bible is his "Holy Word" then they should act like it. Besides, God wrote it, not me or you or anyone else. I'm sure He knows how to deal with the backlash of his remarks. He doesn't need people lying for him to keep the public's approval. He's not George W. Bush for crying out loud.

Now, I do believe that some of those requirements (such as tassles on the ends of your clothing and kosher foods) were left behind in Old Testament days for good reason, but the position the Bible takes on homosexuality is not just an Old Testament thing, it is in the New Testament as well. Being that it is a consistent statement from God over centuries of time, I do not see Him changing his position on the matter.

The Bible also says not to take away or add to scripture. You can debate it's pieces 'til you're blue in the face, but in many cases I see people picking and choosing parts to further their own arguments, whether it be for or against the Bible. All that is proven is close-minded ignorance (now ain't that the kettle calling the pot black?)

Homosexuality is a big issue today in religious circles, but is it the big picture we're supposed to get from the Bible about who God is, what He's like, and who He likes? I personally believe that Jesus would hang out with anyone, no matter what their sexual orientation. And for those who want to argue about whether or not Jesus was married or gay himself, please - there must be something better you can do with your life. Adopt a world vision child or something, we'll both feel better in the morning.

One last note: Why does no one ever bring up what Muslims, or Jews, or Mormons, or Jehovah Witnesses say about it? They have scriptures, too.

Answer 2

I see what you are saying, but not everything is as clear cut as you think. Let me use your traffic sign example to illustrate. The sign may say 50 mph, but it doesn't mean you can go 50 mph EVERY time. There are certain circumstances that change the rules. It means 50 mph under favorable conditions. If it's icy on the road you really don't want to be going anywhere near 50 mph. As for a clear, cut message int he bible, there are other things to consider. The bible is by no means infallible. There have been many. many cases in which bible scholars have found possible mistranslations and sometimes possible outright lies involved. Before the printing press was invented every bible was handwritten by scribes. Scholars believe that many of those scribes, while writing and translating, put their own personal views into the individual books in the bible and the torah, which is basically the first five books of the bible for the Jews as you probably know. You can't say that it is a clear, cut rule, because in many, many cases in the bible, it's hard to find out which messages are true and which ones are the result of someone else's whims or views.

Answer 3

I'm not religious, and not completely familiar with the Bible's position on homosexuality. One of the things that perhaps makes people question that position is that the Bible is contradictory on so many other matters. Another argument I've heard, and cannot speak to the truth of, is that since homosexuality is only addressed in the Old Testament and so many Old Testament laws are categorically ignored, those that address homosexuality can be safely ignored as well.

But for me, the most persuasive argument on this topic is that the Bible is a work of man. It may or may not have been divinely inspired, but it definitely went through a very human editorial process. No god that professes to be a god of love would categorically exclude an expression of love that is not in itself detrimental to society. If one wants to apply the same rules that govern hetersexual relationships (about promiscuity, use of force, etc.) to homosexual relationships, then so be it. But it seems contradictory to completely write off any expression of love.

Answer 4

Oh, I don't get angry at this sort of thing -- I feel pity, not anger.

Firstly, you can assert and assert that its a choice. It isn't. Bisexuals get a choice; gays and straights --> no choice.

Secondly, even if you are a literalist, you know that the Bible was not written in English, and that translation is actually transliteration. So, when many scholars do NOT agree with the translation your sect (one sect out of 1400 or so) believe -- why should everyone else do so.

Thirdly, from a very real perspective, it is foolish (not a word I use very often) to be a literalist to begin with.

For example, the Bible says that the world has corners (Isaiah 11:12) and that it sets on pillars (I Samuel 2:8). It says that God accepted a human sacrifice -- he may have prevented Isaac's, but he allowed a general to sacrifice his own daughter without even a murmur, the text giving tacit support to the idea that having given his word, the man had to kill his child. (Judges 11:30-39). It clearly maintains that genocide is often commanded by God (Joshua 10:40-42 and I Samuel 15: 2, 3 and 8) and that, after killing all the adults in a race, taking the female children as sex slaves is permissible (Numbers 31: 17-18).

The God revealed by the Bible is not only both a liar who doesn't know the natural laws of his own world, and a monster, as shown above -- but he has no real regard, even for his own people, whom he forces into cannibalism (Leviticus 26: 27-29) when he is mad at them; or his priests, whose faces he wipes with dung (Malachi 2:1-3).

It is not only gays and lesbians that are hated by bible-god -- though they are the focus of many of the fundamentalists (which I call the biblio-idolators, as they have made the Bible into an idol.) This monstrosity also suggests killing kids who eat or drink too much (Deuteronomy 21: 18-21), and says that if he is angry with parents he will kill their children (Leviticus 26:22) and he blames things upon children whose great-great-great grandfathers committed the things being blamed on the kids (Exodus 20: 5).

Putting it in a word, bible-god is a monstrosity, a horrific demiurge of evil. Something that even he admits ( Isaiah 45:7 ) [Furthermore, the word used in Hebrew for evil, the word ra' is widely conceded to mean a number of different things: It can mean "wickedness," "mischief," "bad," "trouble," "hurt," "sore," "affliction," "ill," "adversity," "harm," "grievous," and "sad." So no matter what particular interpretation is given of this word -- it has profoundly negative implications. The idea that god is sovereign over the affairs of man makes this even worse, because no matter what interpretation it has, it indicates that bible-god deliberately does harm.]; evil about which he sometimes changes his mind (Exodus 32:14). What a font of unchanging morality -- that almighty God can decide to kill an entire people, and then be talked out of it by a human servant... Furthermore, it is obvious, if God can change his mind, then even if the Bible were not full of errors and horrors, you could not trust that God had not changed his mind on any other issue in it.

So, yes, I suppose if one wants to take as truth a book that says that beetles have four legs instead of six (Leviticus 11: 21-23) and that rabbits chew their cud [which they do NOT] (Deuteronomy 14:7) and if you are willing to, having accepted it as truth, overlook the fact that bible-god routinely changed his mind (I can show you other instances if you wish) then yeah, its the word of God and not accepting its words is "changing" something from God -- for the rest of us however, it means nothing.

I on the other hand know what infallible means -- and an infallible God could not create a fallible book -- so the Bible is simply myth, I don't change it, I just don't think it matters anymore than any other myth so why would I bother?

Regards,

Reynolds Jones
Schenectady, NY
http://www.rebuff.org
[e-mail]

Answer 5

You may interpret the Bible to mean exactly what it says in literal terms. But if you do so, please do not take six short passages that you have determined will condem gay and lesbian persons, and decide that they are among the few passages of the Bible that express truth and must be obeyed.

Take the Leviticus verses that say man with a man is an abomination. Open your Bible to that page, and look at the remainder of the purity codes in Leviticus, and tell me that you would adhere to them as well. That in deed, if your child is disobediant, you will stone him or her. That you will not wear a cloth that is made of two fibers, and that you will not mix milk with meat. That two days after it has been killed, you will dispose of all meat, that you will never allow two different seeds to be planted in the same garden. Tell me that if your brother dies without sons, you will impregnate his wife so that his name will go forth. And tell me that you will adhere to the other rules about adultery, fornication and divorce that are in the Old Testament.

If you can honestly say that you obey all of those rules, and that you adhere to them, and haven't decided that those were rules for those times, in that context that really don't apply today, then I'll believe you.

But then, if that's what your story is, explain to me why you ignore what Jesus said about the new covenant, and that we should love God and love one another. What is your story about the Christ who was always inclusive of those at the fringe of society and wanted to bring in those who others might otherwise exclude.

You can't have your Bible and bend it too. If you love God, and if you follow Christ, stop your hating and bigotry.

And no, I'm not angry. I'm hoping that you will print out what I've written, fold it up and put it in your wallet, or in your Bible. And take it out once a week and read it. And see if any shred of it makes sense to you. Because God loves you like he loves me and my gay and lesbian brothers ans sisters, and my straight ones too. He wants you to live by the new law, which is love.

Answer 6

If wish to attract clam responses, you need to understand that you are started with an inflammotary statement.

Nobody outside of the Bible/Fundamentalist camp - whether they are GLBT, or scientists, or whatever - believes that sexual orientation is a choice.

Second, to everyone else outside of the Bible/Fundamentalist camp, the Bible is not a set of rules. It is a collection of stories that is taken in the context of law when desired. There are plenty of "rules" in the Bible that nobody follows. But when it comes to the question of homosexuality, the Bible is suddenly sacrosanct.

I don't think it's that anyone argues that the Bible can be interpreted as being against homosexuality. It's that nobody else validates this as a reasonable means of framing morality regarding sexual orientation.

And for the record - I'm a straight humanist.

Answer 7

This answer is primarily in response to grandma43 above. I agree with you 100% when you say that why would God make me this way if it means I can't go to heaven. And THAT is the problem that I have with the way the Bible is being interpreted by those people who condemn homosexuality! It is becoming increasingly clear by scientific research that being gay is NOT a choice, but is the way people are born. And since God wouldn't make people that way if it were wrong, there must be something inherently wrong with the way the Bible is being interpreted. I have found the books "What the Bible REALLY says about Homosexuality" and the "The children are free" to be VERY helpful in explaining how the Bible has been misunderstood in the passages that people have been using to condemn homosexuality. They also have references to Biblical passages that seem to AFFIRM homosexuality in the Bible.

Answer 8

The Bible can be your little rule book all you want it to be. For me, I do not believe in the Bible, so I don't give a **** about what it says about homosexuality. I believe that the reason that is included in the bible is pretty easy. When someone is creating a people group that they control, they want as many as possible, and having babies is what helps that happen. Thats kind of like when Hitler would award parents for having lots of babies. You can follow the "no homosexuality" rule from the Bible all you want, but where in the world does anyone get off trying to make me follow a rule I don't believe in? The Bible also says that women should be isolated during menstruation and gives moral consent to many practices, social and sexual, that are dispicable and disgusting to the majority of americans think are also disgusting.

Answer 9

Ok, so..we actually covered this in highschool. (Was raised Catholic, and went to catholic school for awhile). You are what they like to call a legalist. I would first say that what you think is a very clear-cut rule, if you look at some of the bible scholars and some of the cultural context, it isn't as clear cut as you think it is. Some of it is translation decisions (what does does the word that means both "virgin" and "young girl" get written down as? etc), and some of it is cultural context. For example, people quote leviticus all the time, but Leviticus is chock full of rules that were meant for the Hebrew people to keep themselves differentiated from their peers. It was a religious rule, and not a moral one; kind of like eating fish on fridays (if you're familiar with that; I don't know what your background is). Furthermore, no, we don't usually say that you're not meant to drive 50mph, but ...
In New York state, for example, it's illegal for someone to purchase cigarettes for someone under the age of 18. It is illegal for someone under the age of 18 to purchase cigarettes. However, it is NOT illegal for someone under the age of 18 to HAVE them. So...logically, it's ok as long as you steal them from someone? Better example is the simple concept "thou shall not kill", which we pretty much still buy into in our law today. BUT: does that mean that if you or your family are threatened, you still shouldn't do anything? Religiously, your answer may vary (I don't remember what official catholic teaching says: it's either left gray area or else says it's ok), but the law in our country is that self-defense is an acceptable reason to kill another human being. It's not just "killing people is bad"; you need to look at the intentions behind the law. Other examples of things like this can be found on any lawyer show EVER; whenever someone gets off free on a technicality, that's a legalist perspective. By the word, as it's written, they haven't broken the law technically, but they've usually broken the intentions behind the law. The question is whether or not you believe God works the same way the US criminal justice system does (and frankly, I SURE hope not).

Answer 10

Jesus said that anyone who distresses a child should be thrown in the sea with a millstone around his neck. I assume you are totally opposed to hitting kids. (I am.)

Are you aware that the bible says you should not eat shell fish? That you should mix NOT two types of fabrics in the same outfit? These things are called abominations to the lord.

Secondly, are you aware that Jesus said ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. What on earth could that possibly mean to you if you are still say gays are disapproved of by God. Jesus even has a question for you on that - he says, why do you talk about the splinter in your neighbor's eye and ignore the log in your own?


Thirdly, are you aware that the Bible says the sun revolves around the earth and the mustard seed is the smallest seed? Neither of these things are true.

Are you aware that the bible says if your slave won't leave because he's married to someone in your household that you should nail his ear to the city wall for several days?

Are you aware that the bible was just written down by a bunch of guys? It's the opinions of desert nomads from thousands of years ago. Their prejudices, their justifying mass murder, why is this something we'd use today to think with?

Are you aware that gay/transfendered people do not CHOOSE how they are sexually oriented? I wonder if there are so many straight people who think gays choose, because the anti-gay person is actually gay and has 'chosen' to act straight.

I mean, homophobia is strongly correlated with latent homosexuality, so I'm always surprised people are willing to go public with their anti-gay feelings.