Gays and lesbians; what do you think of askthepizzaguy's answer to this question on your "choosing" to be gay.

Question

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Am6rAa2g0omDxuUGRUA9LHbsy6IX?qid=20060619014545AAyNEyQ
Just wondering how right on or far off those of you who know think this guy is.

Answer 1

Let's start by laying out precisely what he is asserting.

His post seems to indicate that he is asserting the following:

1. All major monotheistic religions oppose homosexuality, and believe it is perversion --
2. Homosexuality is a choice and not inborn --
3. "Indoctrination" occurs in schools that tells kids to be gay, by teaching them that alternative lifestyles exist --
a. contributing factors include any drug use and child abuse (although child abuse is NOT defined)
b. well adjusted children who do not learn about alternative lifestyles from anyone are heterosexual.
4. Anyone who is not in agreement with the author is unable to reason, and has "made up their mind" -- broken down into simpler terms. The author is right, and anyone who disagrees is crazy.
5. Nothing predisposes anyone to be homosexual or to desire homosexual relationships.
a. You can just say no if you do have such feelings by not allowing them to effect you and not acting on them.
b. Every step is a choice -- (caveat -- homosexuality is like crime -- or possibly is crime, I'm not sure what he is trying to assert there.)
6. Repeat 5 again, using different, somewhat more forceful words.
7. Heterosexuality is also a choice. The author could change and be homosexual tomorrow if he so chose.
8. Definition of "sin," placing of homosexuality within the hierarchy of "sin" -- other theological considerations from the perspectives of author's faith community. The argument that God made homosexuals and thus they are not intrinsically immoral is like saying God made Hitler, so he was perfect. -- Not so much a set of assertions as a restatement (I think) of what the author sees as basic and required theological positions,

I don't think I missed any significant part of Mr. Pizzaguy's post. So, let's answer in order. My points will mirror his, as I've laid out his assertions above. If he asserted something of importance that I missed, please contact me by email re: that particular point.

1. This assertion while interesting, is simply not factually correct. Significant portions of the Christian Church, for example, support equal rights for gays, and some churches (The United Church of Christ, for example) support legalized gay marriage, and actively are campaigning for it. In Judaism, the father of all monotheism, a sizable majority of that faith community supports gay rights and Reform Judaism (the branch of Judaism to which the lion's share of practicing Jews belong) supports and will perform gay marriage. So, prima facie, the argument is false.

While facts prove the argument false, even if it were true, so?

2, 5 and 6. This is the meat of author's argument -- though not I think for his giving of it. A repeated and forceful assertion that homosexuality is a choice, and that any gay person who wants to can be straight (by simple extension that is evidently the authors subpoint here)

The evidence against this assertion becomes stronger every year. There are dozens of studies by reputable scientists which show with increasing force that homosexuality exists in nature, and that it is genetic.

1st. A number of major studies have been done of animals. All the species studied had homosexual behavior -- and all the species that had pair bonds at all had homosexual pair bonding TO THE EXCLUSION OF MATING WITH THE OPPOSITE SEX IN HEAT. Mr. Pizzaguy is invited to explain biologically how that is even possible as a choice for animals, rather than an imperative? (the best book in this particular field is probably Dr. Bruce Bagemihl's book "Biological Exuberance" from St. Martin's Press -- from its bibliography you can find many others, and you can easily find other studies that look at the same phenomena.)

2nd -- the Fruit-fly study. The results for fruit-flies can't be denied (link below). People are trying to say that just because it applies to fruit-flies it doesn't have to to people. Alright, while I accept that the genetic mechanism is much more complex among humans -- why on earth would something like homosexuality be completely genetic in simple species and not genetic at all in the most complex species? It makes no sense, particularly given that no gay person I know EVER remembers being attracted to a female. Bisexuals are attracted to both. Gays are only attracted to same sex. So -- how is that a choice? Isn't it just the opposite of what straight people feel? An inborn automatic response. Period.

Now a sub-point that author made by implication on the other hand, is correct. Implied though not explicitly (enough) stated, is the idea that gay people could just say no -- and refuse to have sex or act on their feelings. That is clearly true. Anyone can choose celibacy. The choice between being miserable, lonely, and hopeless was a clear posit for me and many other gay men I know, as an alternative to being openly gay and forming loving and committed relationships. Jonathan and I have been together nearly 15 years -- and any of our straight friends will tell you that we have the most successful relationship of anyone they know... but the choice to say "yep, I'm gay -- and I'm not ashamed and I'm going to be happy" was a very real one, and I made it. So on this particular point, Mr. Pizzaguy is correct.

3.) I suppose that there actually are people who believe that the schools are out to indoctrinate children and make them gay and are in conspiracy with others to do so -- but I can't even imagine who these people are. There isn't much I can say here without being mean, and I really would prefer not to be mean, so just let me say that if you really want to believe that there is a grand conspiracy to make kids gay by teaching them about alternative lifestyles and then.... I'm not sure if he is asserting parental failure here or deliberate complicity on the part of drug dealers and parents, but... and then introduce them to drugs and abuse them to make sure the "indoctrination" takes -- then I am not going to try to stop you. Believe whatever you want.

4. I don't think I'm being unfair to author by breaking down his assertion here in this manner -- but I do think that the assertion speaks for itself and doesn't really need me to answer it. Think about what he says..... and compare it to my translation of his assertion. Is it something that you would expect in reasoned debate? Do you find it an acceptable rhetorical instrument? Has author proven the assertion? Please, ask yourself those questions, and decide for yourself.

7.) Author's assertion here leads me to think that he has been engaged on this subject for a while and is attempting to preempt the obvious arguments against him -- probably, but see below. Again, I urge you to consider what he writes. Straight friends and enemies alike -- do you really think you could turn off your heterosexuality and be gay tomorrow? I don't think you could. Furthermore, there is only one group I know that can switch back and forth -- and that is bisexuals. I must admit, as I read this assertion in the original, I seriously wondered whether this man really is straight -- or is a bisexual who truly hates his gay half and presumes that all gays are like himself, rather than realizing that he is bisexual. I suspect that is NOT the case, but I am not sure, and this whole assertion makes me wonder, particularly some of his wording "their choice to live a normal lifestyle...." is a good example of a quote that made me turn my head on its side and stare at the screen for a moment. He can assert all he wants, but no gay man I've ever known had a choice, other than to be sexual and to have love -- or to be alone or hidden. If Mr. Pizzaguy can honestly assert that he could choose homosexuality at will, then he is NOT straight to begin with, he truly is bisexual.

I think however that this is a rhetorical trick. Perhaps he will clarify whether it is or not for us. It would be helpful.

8. This is theology. Just as his assertion that homosexuality was chosen is the meat of his argument, here we find the reason he is bothering to make it. As we have already seen, not all monotheistic faiths agree with his core assertion against homosexuality -- when we look at this part of the post we see a group of theological assertions. I can tell you right now, not all monotheistic faiths agree with all of these assertions either, and he knows that. Perhaps most importantly, even within Christianity, entire branches of the faith do not have the same canon as other branches, and not all denominations believe that the Bible is the center of the faith. I certainly do not. The creed and the Eucharist are the center of the faith for me; and in the parish that I attend, a parish of about a thousand members -- I know of no one who actually believes the Bible is divine. Faith, again, differs; and because it differs the man's entire argument, which he claims is based on objective logic, falls to shreds, for he is neither objective -- nor logical.

Thank you for letting me answer this, if you need more, please contact me by email directly. I apologize for how brief I have made such a reply - I know that there are many other things I could have pointed out that might have helped, but I have spent over an hour trying to make sure that my reply was well thought out and cited; and I would like to finish making dinner for us. Thank you again.

Kind regards,

Reynolds Jones
Schenectady, NY
http://www.rebuff.org
[e-mail]

Answer 2

I'm not gay, but that guy is a moron. He's wrong. Aside from the entire issue of gays and lesbians he's wrong about socialization and about whether you are born left or right handed (you ARE born that way and it's hardwired in your brain and an inheritable characteristic). At birth you are not a 'blank slate' scientists discarded that idea about 30 years ago. You can't use old science to justify bigotry.

Answer 3

Even if he's right that gay people arive that way due to the way they are raised it's still not a choice for them to be gay.... they had no choice in the way they where raised.

They can maybe chose to not act on homosexual desires, but the fact that they are gay is not a choice.

Being gay simply isn't a choice they made. I would almost garente most wouldn't have simply becose it's easier to be strait and most have famlies that give them a horable time over it.

Answer 4

This guy takes the time to antagonise people. He is a Racist, homophobic, redneck bigot. The best thing for him is to take the first plane to Iraq and announce at the airport that he is an American. That way no one will hear from his headless body again.

Answer 5

Uhm this guy is off his rocker. Wow I wounder if he keeps a tinfoil helmet on his head to keep the government from reading his thoughts.

Answer 6

When you encounter the awesome Lover of your heart and soul, Jesus, the things and lusts of this world matter little in comparison

www.NeedHim.org

Answer 7

I think it is funny that he thinks we can choose not to have sex and live alone and is advocating that for his religion. Really makes ya wanta go out and join doesn't it?

Answer 8

What the f*ck?? That was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. It isn't a choice. I was born bi and I luv it!! ^ ^

Answer 9

wow...he IS fcuking ignorant....stupid fcuk....
and another thing...it isnt a choice... just to clarify....

Answer 10

like his name perhaps you should only aks him about pizza question!!